Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

I think your genralisation says more about you than everyone else.

If a group's founder was Fred Phelps everybody would be up in arms about it. But Occupies founder Kalle Lasn (the man behind Adbusters) is a dyed in the wool Antisemitic, "Oh that's ok that's not what the group is about."

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=8407349

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjm4LxFa1c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Y9CARUwio

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66356.html

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/13/more-anti-semitism-at-occupy-los-angeles/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/more-anti-semitism-at-occupy-wall-st-protester-calls-jewish-man-dumb-motherfuer/

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Thank you for these links, demonstrating that this fringe does exist.

"Hitler's bankers wall street" in on a sign included a couple of times in your links. I don't get what that sign is saying, period, much less how it could be antisemitic. If you're relating Wall St to Hitler, wouldn't that try to place the antisemitism on Wall St itself? I'm confused. It almost looks like some of OWS is trying to compete with the Tea Party for highest concentration of illiterates at a given place and time.

LGR, your first link said it: this is a small minority on the fringe of this group. That same newsperson also stated, about the Palestinian flag issue, that one such issue about a leaderless movement is that there is no one to effectively say "no" to someone who's got their own agenda.

The second link, the youtube video presents an interesting conundrum: Conspiracy theorists point to a Zionist conspiracy (though not, in every iteration of the... "folklore", necessarily composed entirely of Jewish people) related to the nation of Israel. This woman specified the "Zionist Jews" - as in, Jews who are a part of a conspiracy to support the nation of Israel through clandestine, not necessarily legal means - needed to be run out of this country. Is this absurdity talking about running out every Jew in the nation, for being Jewish? In most cases, you'll find that this is not so; even if a few of those who are nutters even among conspiracy theorists try to popularize the idea that the "Zionist Conspiracy" is synonymous with all of Judaism. Alex Jones, who owns prisonplanet.com and infowars.com, is a great example of someone who points to a "Zionist Conspiracy", but often takes pains to distinguish that conspiracy from average Jewish Americans.

The pjmedia link takes the same line - each example, with few exceptions, shows people who do not clearly show whether they acknowledge that distinction between an entire race of people and some variant of this hypothetical conspiracy. One of these links showing media from Occupy LA mentioned that the Rothschilds funded WWII in a discussion of Fascism and the responsibility of government - so, mentioning that someone who happens to be Jewish helped fund WWII makes this antisemitic? Questioning the decisions of the Rothschilds may have started back in the day with Antisemites, but today some of it is clearly about banks. To not allow this is just as racist, as it would put the Rothschilds on a special playing field for simply being Jewish. We have examples which go over the line, some which toe it, and some where we're overreacting, all mixed in together with this one source.

The third link - while I can't say for certain, as I'm unable to discern motives and as the beginning of the discussion was cut off - just looks like some random New Yorker kid being a jackass when a discussion got personal. Both sides clearly jumped into spewing stereotypes as a means of attacking one another.

The link from the Blaze is another interesting case: Here we have a reference to that same Zionist conspiracy as the first thing we see. The first video there... wow. Good luck growing your own food, shooting your own animals, dropping out of the system for self-sufficiency when you're in the middle of New york freaking city. We have just another jackass with a couple of stereotypes who wants to shut down conversation for his own personal lecture. Antisemitic? Yep. Contributing anything at all? LOL no.

As for the second video on the blaze: The man is talking about the nation of Israel. Some of his points about Israel have merit. Some of Israel's points about Palestine have merit. It's a complicated bloody mess, and to pretend that one side is absolutely right while the other is absolutely wrong is just closed-minded. Unless I'm antisemetic for this paragraph, I don't see how this guy is antisemetic for discussing his views of the modern-day nation which calls itself Israel.

and finally, from the politico link:

The ADL noted that thus far “anti-Semitism has not gained traction more broadly with the protestors, nor is it representative of the larger movement at this time.”

I just think it's funny that its a travesty that reflects on the whole of OWS, but when Republican Tea Party has the same fringe idiots show up, nobody bats an eye.

[Gunnarr]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

If a group's founder was Fred Phelps everybody would be up in arms about it. But Occupies founder Kalle Lasn (the man behind Adbusters) is a dyed in the wool Antisemitic, "Oh that's ok that's not what the group is about."

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=8407349

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjm4LxFa1c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Y9CARUwio

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66356.html

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/13/more-anti-semitism-at-occupy-los-angeles/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/more...mb-motherfuer/

So you don't like someone, so those that follow should be beaten, extreme but the point I am making is this, whos being the nazi on this matter, incidently he has been accused of anti semetic work, because of a film he made.

"Lasn was one of the first people to call for an Occupy Wall Street demonstration, but is careful not to claim ownership of it.[6][7]

Lasn has been accused of antisemitism over certain public comments and published opinions.[2] In 2004, he wrote and signed an Adbusters article entitled "Why Won't Anyone Say They Are Jewish?", in which he identified, from a list of George W. Bush-era neoconservatives, those who happen to be Jewish.[8]"

From this page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalle_Lasn, Why don't you start a thread on him .

[Gwen]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

(Will look through the OWS founding info when it's not finals week--thanks for posting)
Wanted to bop back in for this:

When you break the law, you will end up in trouble. When you disobey a direct order from police to disperse you are breaking the law. Peaceful assembly is not camping out in non-designated areas and making public space unusable by the rest of society.

I do expect that when you break the law you get arrested. So do the people who intentionally break the law in civil disobedience movements. Your number of nonviolent* civil disobedience arrests is kind of an activist badge of honor, at least in Berkeley. (*I am speaking specifically of the nonviolent Occupy protestors here and below. I understand that some force is often necessary to subdue people who are themselves using force.)

What I don't expect--and what has people upset--is that people are being beaten for breaking the law nonviolently. That isn't my understanding of how our government is supposed to work. LadyGarnetRose, I ask this earnestly: is it yours? Do you believe that violence is an appropriate response to people who are peacefully protesting (regardless of the reason for their protest)?

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

(Will look through the OWS founding info when it's not finals week--thanks for posting)
Wanted to bop back in for this:



I do expect that when you break the law you get arrested. So do the people who intentionally break the law in civil disobedience movements. Your number of nonviolent* civil disobedience arrests is kind of an activist badge of honor, at least in Berkeley. (*I am speaking specifically of the nonviolent Occupy protestors here and below. I understand that some force is often necessary to subdue people who are themselves using force.)

What I don't expect--and what has people upset--is that people are being beaten for breaking the law nonviolently. That isn't my understanding of how our government is supposed to work. LadyGarnetRose, I ask this earnestly: is it yours? Do you believe that violence is an appropriate response to people who are peacefully protesting (regardless of the reason for their protest)?

I do not justify the police beating people randomly.

[Dez]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

What an interesting and political wording.

[cesara]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

If a group's founder was Fred Phelps everybody would be up in arms about it. But Occupies founder Kalle Lasn (the man behind Adbusters) is a dyed in the wool Antisemitic, "Oh that's ok that's not what the group is about."

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/iteam&id=8407349

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjm4LxFa1c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Y9CARUwio

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/66356.html

http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2011/10/13/more-anti-semitism-at-occupy-los-angeles/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/more...mb-motherfuer/

Not one of these reference AdBusters or Lasn....not one.

I did my homework last week and read that article Gunnarr references, after you painted OWS as being 'anti-semitic' .

First off, a huge majority of what you posted is sentiment against the government/state of Israel and Zionism.....it is not against 'Jews' as a whole.....These articles carry the weight of large straw men....

Secondly, let's look at Lasn's article and his response after some critical responses: http://www.pinteleyid.com/adbusters.pdf

His comments very clearly reference political motivations and aims, and the reasons why their opinion on a political scale could be biased.....

IMHO, it's a fair assessment.....and again, IMHO, saying that does NOT make me anti-semitic.

And, FTR, I see Israel as extremely heavy-handed in dealing with the Palestinian issue....if I were honest, I would use the word repugnant. I also love my Jewish friends.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

OK I've avoided this thread for a while, and I admit it's just far too much to go through, but I've been thinking about OWS lately. I'm kind of torn on the issue. On one hand, I'm not a fan of AdBusters, who started the movement. I know them WELL as they are based very close to where I'm from. They have both fans and a lot of foes over there. We actually get called on to look at what they print quite often in my marketing course, as anti-marketing is actually very important to marketing. Anyway, aware of who they are, not a fan. I'm also not a fan of the anti-corporate factions of the movement. It's a really long story, but overall, I find it a) hypocritical (some of the Occupy Victoria people left cigarette butts everywhere...seriously, you're protesting 'evil corporations' and you're SMOKING? Think about that for a second), and b) I feel that corporations in themselves are not the problem but rather the manner in which many conduct themselves are. I do certainly think that corporations, especially British and American ones, focus FAR too much on short term profit and returns (as they rely so heavily on shareholder value, and let's be honest, most shareholders are morons) and sometimes this comes and the expense of the greater good (and as we've seen, often their own long-term success as well). BUT, none of this means that the existence of corporations are the problem in itself.

I think some of the various movements in various countries are iffy. From what I've seen in Canada, it's a lot of protesting American issues, which would be great if it was a solidarity thing, but overall it doesn't seem to be. I do get that inequality is spreading in Canada as well but the protesters have a tendency to bark up the wrong trees with it. I've seen various things ranging from bank bailouts (did they even read the news? No bank bailouts in Canada!) to complaining about corporations that do not operate in Canada. If you're going to have solidarity for the US, fine, but make that clear. If not and you want to protest Canadian issues, PROTEST CANADIAN ISSUES. Look them up. It's not hard. Germany has been a lot more cohesive and therefore, a lot more successful. The core of protesters managed to actually draw up a list of protest demands regarding the country's policy and economy and as a result they were listened to. Go figure. Also, rather than focusing on the US, German occupy protests tended to focus on German issues.

As for the US, the heart of the issue, I have a few feelings. Some are listed above in my first section. I also generally dislike the overall disorganization of the movement and wish that people could get together and figure out WHY they are unhappy. Even if it were different groups with different demands, that would be ok. It would just be better if it were more cohesive. Also, while 'occupy wall street' sounds catchy and large corporations certainly play a role in the clusterf*ck that is the global economy, this is not the root of the problem and I feel that protesting Washington would be a much better place to start. 'Occupy Capitol Hill' perhaps. It's policy, lack of social infrastructure, lobbying and poor regulation that really is at the heart of this.

Anyway, I could write a novel about this, and I may at some point do an essay because if it comes up in an exam situation I'd love to write about it (writing about current events always gets me better grades!) But since this is a forum post, I'll leave it there and post a few articles/commentaries I found interesting that I also agree with:
http://www.oecd.org/document/7/0,374..._1_1_1,00.html (there's also a report that was released today, which I haven't read yet but I"m quite interested in....I downloaded the key findings)
http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2011/11/why_...listen_to.html (I also like to share this info with protester friends...companies are nothing if they don't have customers...demand more from them!)

http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2011/10/take_the_occupy_wall_street_mo.html

http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-types-wall-street-protesters-hurting-their-own-cause/

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-ways-we-ruined-occupy-wall-street-generation/

http://econ4.org/ (economists who agree with the concept behind occupy)
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2011/11...n_1101886.html (this man was responsible for G20, and supports OWS)

There's a lot more I'll probably post. It's an interesting time to be taking an economics-steeped course on international business and I follow a lot of the press about the global economy at the moment and read a lot of interesting things from various angles.

a couple of end notes:
-While I definitely support changes in how business is done overall and better policies from our world governments, I do think that some of the issues surrounding inequality were brought on ourselves. We continually demanded cheaper products, and there are only a couple of ways that can be achieved (better efficiency and lower input costs). Granted, a system relying heavily on continual growth and shareholder return also played a HUGE role, but the pressure for cheap products had its effect. We also have a huge throwaway culture, and I think there are HUGE issues surrounding waste. How many people actually know how to make or reuse things? We've also let our lack of education regarding personal finance stand in our way. Granted I think schools have to play a role in this (parents can't teach kids if they themselves do not know) but it doesn't just come down to schools. We're pretty bad at talking about money, as a whole. In my adult life I've seen a shocking number of people who don't understand the basics of personal banking and don't know how to budget.

-This isn't brought up a lot in the OWS movement but I think education regarding food and nutrition is big, as well as the availability of affordable healthy food. It's almost as important as health care.

[cesara]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Interesting post, Danie, and in several parts I concur....I just wanted to point out one thing, and I suppose it's the one thing I have noticed most being used as a preamble to an OWS ciritique...

I also generally dislike the overall disorganization of the movement and wish that people could get together and figure out WHY they are unhappy.

While I have seen this statement reiterrated many times, for the most part, it is followed by critique of the main issues that OWS represents....corporate greed and deregulation (aka neoliberalism and globalization) that contributed to the current global economy and the resulting disparity between the rich and the poor. I, personally, can appreciate the irony.....

Those are some great links Danie. I noticed that all but one address the issues I posted above in one way or another. I just wanted to point out that you imply you don't acknowledge/understand the message, but clearly, based on your links, you understand the issues that OWS brings to light.

Personally, (and Danie, no offense intended) I see a clear message from OWS -- and I know, based on articles and opinions I've read, that other people see it, too -- despite the curious statements referencing a lack of cohesiveness or knowing 'why' that is often associated with OWS.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

No offense taken. I know what you mean. I didn't even really mean the movement as a whole, but mostly that a lot of the protesters don't really have a clear cohesive argument, or understand economics. I don't really expect them to either, but sometimes it's just frustrating to see people protest something they don't fully understand.

I DO support the overall aim of OWS, and as the links I posted suggest, so do a lot of people you wouldn't really expect. I do agree it overall has some aim, and I do think it's gotten more cohesive over time as more credible and informed voices (not Adbusters) have joined the cause

[cesara]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

I hear ya....it can be very annoying to hear people talking sheer tripe and being highlighted as representing OWS....I call them 'bandwagoners'...lol....I just try to keep in mind that they don't represent the general push behind OWS.

And I agree that most people don't understand economics -- I being one of them...lol. I really had no desire to learn about economics. OWS has been a real push for me to learn the whys about the current global economy, so, at the very least I owe OWS that...lol. But, I DID try to learn more....and I'm hoping the essence of OWS spurs more people just like me to do the same. We'll all be that much better off for it!

[DanieMarie]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Glad to hear it!

I don't begrudge people for not understanding economics either. I think even most economists don't really understand economics a lot of the time! It's a learning process and if the movement gets anyone interested, great!

[Dez]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

News clip in my feed this morning about police starting to support OWS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNEsJ...&feature=g-all

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

First off, a huge majority of what you posted is sentiment against the government/state of Israel and Zionism.....it is not against 'Jews' as a whole.....These articles carry the weight of large straw men....

Zionism is a canon of Judaism

And, FTR, I see Israel as extremely heavy-handed in dealing with the Palestinian issue....if I were honest, I would use the word repugnant. I also love my Jewish friends.

Heavy handed?

You haven't a clue as most do not. Or you just don't care to lok.

And btw, the first sign that you might have an issue with a group as a whole is when you have to point out that you have friends from said group.

[cesara]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Very exciting stuff, Dez...thanks for posting that! the words of Chris Hedges ring in my ears when I see that.....from this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj8UlxhfJLw

As he discusses being witness to many different movements worldwide, including the bringing down of the Berlin Wall, he states, "What happens is, is that the foot-soldiers of the elite, the blue uniform police, the mechanisms of control, finally don't want to impede the movement. And at that point, the power elite is left defenseless."

What a powerful statement of witness......time will tell if it rings true for OWS....

---------- Post added at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 PM ----------

Zionism is a canon of Judaism

It's a political movement. There are segments of Jews who do not support Zionism.
See:
Jews Against Zionism - http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
Not in Our Name - http://nion.ca/
Jews Not Zionists - http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/
International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network - http://www.ijsn.net/home/
(there are too many to list)

I would imagine they do not consider themselves anti-semitic.

The rest of your post was ad hominem and not worthy of a response.