Cultural Appropriation

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

James, cariad, I never thought for a moment that you have a chip on your shoulder. You're entitled to be proud of your culture, and I certainly don't have a problem with that.

The only thing I find difficult with some people - and I'm sure you're not among them - is when they 'claim' a culture as belonging to them, rather like grabbing all the dolls in the toy box. Because as you've mentioned already - we can have ancestors all over the place. Certainly in spite of my name, I am not wholly Welsh. Neither is Mr Penry, in spite of his peculiar conviction that he is Cheddar Man.

In fact, Welsh is a complex culture... the north Welsh don't feel the South Welsh are genuine, the English incomers are regarded often with suspicion (the cottage burning has stopped now though) and people from the Valleys, like me, are regarded as being totally beyond the pail. When I go outside Wales, I am obviously Welsh. But within Wales, that's quite a different matter.... And I'm not a fluent Welsh speaker either. Which also marks my Welshness as being weak.

Yet I feel Welsh. I sound Welsh. I am Welsh born and bred. And I am very proud of Wales. But to some people.... nah. Just Wenglish.

And something I've never quite got to grips with is whether a culture belongs to us, or we belong to it. I think maybe it needs consideration.

[DrStrange]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

So I've written and rewritten this post several times because this is an issue that is pretty high up my list of priorities. And even with that rewriting, I am still probably not going to say exactly what I mean to, because it is such a large but delicate issue.

The way I feel about it is that world history being what it is, IE a long sad trail of European people oppressing, enslaving, conquering, killing, etc., people from lands they invaded, and that this is still ongoing in some parts of the world by some predominantly white countries, white people should take a long, long time to think about what it means to people who aren't them before doing anything in that direction.

scarred the cultural landscape of the world in ways that have not been repaired and may in fact be irreparable.The people of India lived as second class citizens to British invaders for a long time. The indigenous people of the Americas were almost wiped out over two continents by white settlers. Africans and African diaspora have felt the enduring sting of European colonialism, the slave trade, and the aftermath thereof for hundreds of years. And there is a new wave of white oppression going on in the Middle East today. And it hurts people.

Furthermore, and worse, those are all generic terms for many different cultures occupying various geographic areas. "Native American" isn't one culture, but many tribes each with their own culture and beliefs. African isn't one unified culture, but many nations comprising many tribes and clans with their own cultures and beliefs. And so on. And often those are things that are overlooked when a white person decides that they want to take this or that belief, custom, article of clothing, etc: they don't even know who and where it actually comes from, much less what it means.

So, all of that adds up to this: for most of the people of the world, a white person commandeering an important aspect of their culture with zero context, less respect, and without any invitation to do so is hardly a pleasant occurrence, however naive or even well-meaning that white person may be. It's also usually done in a manner that plays on racial stereotypes in the worst way, such as the current fad of hipster girls wearing "Native American" headdresses and "war paint" on their cheeks.

However, participating in a cultural or religious event from a culture not your own, but to which you were invited; receiving spiritual instruction from a native person in his or her tradition; educationg oneself about a different religion's creation beliefs; etc; are not examples of negative cultural appropriation, because of invitation in the first example, context and invitation in the second, and respect in the third, and presumably other combinations of those positive qualities in the etc.

There's a right way and a wrong way to express admiration for other people's cultures, and even implement aspects of their culture into your life and belief system, and it all comes down to being respectful and observing cultural boundaries. Also, if someone from the culture gets offended at you for doing or wearing something from their culture, then it's probably best first to apologize and second to stop doing it.

The people on tumblr are poorly informed on both sides of the debate, as people in tumblr arguments usually are. But issues revolving around cultural appropriation are important and should be addressed.

ETA: Also, I am aware of the irony in calling all europeans "white people". Because Irish aren't British aren't French aren't German, etc. However, in my experience, cultural appropriation in the context provided in the OP is a primarily American thing. And Americans are in general a blend of all kinds of white people.

I feel no guilt at all for the British Empire. We simply did what EVERY race did at one time or another: raped, pillaged and burned anyone we deemed inferior. And by "inferior" I mean any nation we could beat in a fight. The Right of Conquest was old before the Romans bumped uglies with the Sabines. Pretty much every culture in the world is built on the blood and bones of the peoples that came before them.

The Nobel Savage is a myth: Indians and Africans were perfectly happy to rape, torture, enslave and murder each other for hundreds of years before White Europeans even knew their lands existed. The Mayans built their whole society around human sacrifice. The Indians only stopped burning young women alive on the pyres of their husbands AFTER the British pimp-slapped them and stole their nation. The majority of slaves that were sent to the plantations were not taken by force: they were bought from tribal chiefs, who were only too happy to sell their own countrymen to the Whites.

I remember laughing my ass off at the Million Man March; one idiot was shouting how he was, "Descended from the kings of Africa!" Sorry, but you are descended from the losers the kings of Africa sold to the slave traders.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I'm an all American mutt. I can, depending on my mood, claim ancestry all over the place but culturally I'm American and happy that way. I'm also content to let just about anyone who is legally a US citizen to claim the same. Residents can steal/borrow as much of the culture as they like but I may not always grant the title (depends on circumstance and my mood).

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

To my mind, people who claim to be 'pure' anything are treading a very dangerous path. Look at this recently little gem:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/rising-star-of-hungarian-antisemitic-party-forced-to-resign-after-he-discovers-his-jewish-heritage-8053216.html

Karma got around to him pretty damn quick, I suspect. (And I'm still not sure what I think about Karma....)

As for the British Empire, as I explained to my Indian son-in-law, the British Army didn't just open fire on Sikhs at Amritsar, the opened fire on the miners of Tonypandy, too.

[Shahaku]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

The Nobel Savage is a myth: Indians and Africans were perfectly happy to rape, torture, enslave and murder each other for hundreds of years before White Europeans even knew their lands existed. The Mayans built their whole society around human sacrifice. The Indians only stopped burning young women alive on the pyres of their husbands AFTER the British pimp-slapped them and stole their nation. The majority of slaves that were sent to the plantations were not taken by force: they were bought from tribal chiefs, who were only too happy to sell their own countrymen to the Whites.

I remember laughing my ass off at the Million Man March; one idiot was shouting how he was, "Descended from the kings of Africa!" Sorry, but you are descended from the losers the kings of Africa sold to the slave traders.

This is not completely accurate on the African note. Describing African peoples as tribal is often extremely inaccurate. They had complex governments and countries. Tribal refers to groups without a centralized government, which many African states had. And warring states would often sale those they conquered from other states. Inland states were often to main target because coastal states were the most easily accessible to slave traders who often came on large ships loaded down with the ammunition they traded for slaves. The coastal states, being heavily armed thanks to slave traders, were then able to much more easily defeat the inland states, taking everyone from peasants to chiefs and kings with them.

However, it was much more rare for coastal Africans to sale their own, and even less likely that those people were kinsmen. Why would they when they only had to travel a week or two inland and invaded people who weren't their countrymen? You also have to realize that the modern borders in Africa rarely accurately reflect the culture of the peoples who live there, some cultural states have even been cut in half by modern borders. So when I refer to countrymen, I'm referring to cultural countrymen from slave trading times, not modern countrymen. While unlikely, it is possible that whoever was shouting that was descended from a king of sorts or perhaps a chief. (Based off of two years of study I did with a prominent researcher of African Art and Culture, Christopher Roy, who could probably do a better job explaining.)

Furthermore, you're comments completely disregard that vast diversity of these places and show a huge lack of knowledge about them. There are many, many African cultures that were not warring before colonial intrusion. Who only defended their borders and tried hard to come to a peace. And when you say Indian, are you referring to Eastern Indian or Native American? Because Eastern Indians still have trouble stopping the burning of widows especially in rural areas, and while I'm not as familiar with Native Americans, I had never heard of this practice among them.

[Dez]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Cultural appropriation has been in my thoughts for a slightly different reason lately, Rafe.

I've mentioned on here before that my maternal grandmother grew up in one of the Mormon settlements in Chihuahua Mexico. LDS beliefs don't really allow for individual culture to stick it out...before my ancestors were Mormon, they were a rather interesting blend of Danes with possible Jewish ancestry, Swiss German Calvinists, rough and tumble Scottish miners and rather prim folks from England and New England. After? Mormon culture. That's it. That's part of what makes it so darn hard to walk away if it isn't working for you.

My grandmother was the exception to that. She was bilingual, and made her living as a Spanish teacher, so there was Spanish all the time in her house. We had Mexican food at holidays, and most of the art on her walls, etc, were all from Mexico!

Working in restaurants in CA means that about 80% of my co-workers speak Spanish. I've been trying to dive back in and remember, and it's been tough, especially because, although my parents both spoke Spanish(and both spent time in South America as missionaries when they were younger), they didn't speak it to *us*, the kids. Only my grandma did. There are all sorts of cultural in's-and-out's that feel comfortable, though, that feel like home in ways I didn't anticipate. Everything else I felt like I had, past "generic white culture" is gone now, and I never have felt like I belonged to that in the first place.

This has raised all sorts of questions, though...is it stealing Mexican-American culture for me to feel a kinship to these things and want to participate? By eating Mexican food at holidays, etc, etc, are my family stealing or being disrespectful, especially since in some ways my little old grandmother was, well, kinda racist when it came to people who had accents common to NW Mexico? Since leaving the LDS church, I've started to study more, too, and I've also found that my grandmother's view about the Mexican War of Independence is VERY different from others. She used to talk about how poor they were, and yes, they were by American standards, but hell, they were landowners. Her grandfather had the first car in the area. As Mormons, their allegiance was to the Mormon church, not to Mexico. No wonder they local people didn't bat an eye when they got kicked off their land and sent packing across the border. I'm fairly sure there was no love lost there.

So...where does that leave me? I have done a shitty job my entire life trying to fit into "Mormon Culture". Between the above and being a teen in Miami, I feel like I've come home in this little Hispanic neighborhood I've moved into, and it's lit a fire under my backside to become fluent, so that I can actually make friends and talk to my neighbors and the ladies at the market around the corner without blushing and stammering trying to communicate.

From a religious perspective, the feeling is different for any kind of spirits of the land then they ever did in Idaho. I leave offerings to them and use Spanish as I'm able. I've left treats like conchas from the market, but worry about misappropriation and cultural theft. Would someone who realized what I was doing feel hurt or angry at me? From their perspective, do I, as a white girl, have "everything" when it comes to mainstream American culture, and should I leave alone what they have to be proud about?

I have no idea, and so I tread as lightly as I can.

[Raphaeline]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I just think we're past all that - if we're going to become a global community, we need to start realizing that things are going to change as a result. We will have to relax our grip on who is allowed to play with our toys if we all want to share the same enormous toybox.

Dez, I couldn't get up the courage to order food in a Mexican restaurant in Spanish if my life depended on it, even though I know enough Spanish to do so (it's not like much would be needed, lol) and was encouraged to in a Spanish class trip. I'm not even clear on how I think I might offend someone doing that, but I'm just sure they would raise an eyebrow at me if I did.

Anyhow, it seems fair to me to assume that when it comes to how much you're "allowed" in the Hispanic culture, it comes down to what YOU are comfortable with, not what THEY would accept. I mean, if you were raised eating a certain food, speaking a certain amount of a language, and so on, it's as much a part of who you are as a part of who they are. The way I see it, you own it as much as they do. Even if they had ancestors that lived that practice, it doesn't take away from your experience.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

The idea of ordering things in another language fascinates me. I have always done this wherever I've travelled. I once managed to hold up a queue (unintentionally) in Athens as I tried to say thank you for a bus ticket in Greek - and received a kind lesson in the basics to boot!

I have struggled with Arabic, Hindi and Welsh.... I have always, always tried to honour whatever culture I found myself in by attempting the language. That's not appropriation or disrespect - I was always taught it was the best of manners, and people have always been kind to me and said they appreciated my efforts (okay, maybe they were stretching the truth a bit.) But the things is, I always knew I was speaking someone else's language. I knew I was probably doing it none too well.

But I was trying. Because for many cultures the worst thing you can do is barge in and expect everyone to speak English. Just a nod in the right direction is usually appreciated.

At least - that's always been my experience.

[Jembru]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I guess the language issue comes down to the culture. I've heard that when we try to speak to French people in French, it's not unusual to be met with a rude response, yet I've been lucky enough to only have to speak to natives who enjoy attempts by foreighners to speak their language and explore their culture. The Germans enjoy giving long explanations of grammar similar to Tylluan's experience in Athens (I feel your pain!). Then the Japanese will tell you your fractured attempt at their language is PERFECT and you sound fluent. So it must depend where you are I suppose.

If I were in your situation Dez, I'd make an attempt to get to know a few locals so I can ask them. I have no idea how simple this will be in your neighbourhood. I'm guessing you already have friends through work, so you could explain your situation and ask how they feel about your adoption of their culture. I think you might be surprised by their answer. If you don't feel close enough to them, mayb find a few local friends other ways. In Bavaria, I made friends on a German forum first, then hung around in a bar speaking in English until a kind local guy introduced himself. Japan was a little harder. There's very much a division between the in-group and outsiders, which is hard to break through. I used a language exchange site to make friends with young wannabe Westerners, who loved having a white girl to hang with.

You could also post an advert for language exchange online too. I met Miyo through Gumtree this way and it has led to a really nice friendship. Once you have local friends, your Spanish will probably come flooding back in no time, and you'll have a better feel for whether or not you're welcome to share their culture! I'd be surprised if they don't love you for your interest.

[Medusa]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Truly deep down inside...we are all much closer then we are apart. I met Dumuzi on-line. He's in Egypt, I'm in California. Both of our mothers use 'the sandal' as an appropriate weapon.


We are very much alike..more then we'd like to think.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Truly deep down inside...we are all much closer then we are apart. I met Dumuzi on-line. He's in Egypt, I'm in California. Both of our mothers use 'the sandal' as an appropriate weapon.


We are very much alike..more then we'd like to think.

Yes. Absolutely.

[Witcher]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

There is a scale, in my opinion, of cultural appropriation. A white person in upstate New York doing puja to Kali after visiting temples, speaking with Hindus, reading a lot, respecting the culture, etc. is not the same as some white person in North Carolina claiming to be a Cherokee "shaman" (not even a word they would use) after having bought a smudge stick and some eagle feathers with no knowledge or connection whatsoever to that community. Respect and knowledge make the difference. If those things are there then I see no problem with it. Cultures have stolen, borrowed, remade and reworked since the dawn of history. Most modern intelligent pagans are no more "stealing" cultures than the Romans stole Cybele or Mithras.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

And something I've never quite got to grips with is whether a culture belongs to us, or we belong to it. I think maybe it needs consideration.

IMO Tylluan Its like everything its rights and obligations. Like a family we get some great times with family and they are there when we NEED someone but its also down to us to make sure we maintain the family relationship so its there for the kids because when we fall out with someone it impacts the whole lot of us... iLike that imo culture belongs to every member of the culture so while we have a right to call it ours and reap the rewards we are also obligated to it, to ensure that its better then we found it for the next generation. Its a cycle of life thing more then an I paid for it its mine. I think lots of people end up with family members who go astray and have to be cut out of the family for atleast a while to save from hurt. Like that with culture if youre not giving back and youre just exploiting it for gain you become this distastefull thing in everyones eyes and no matter how loudly you shout about your culture everyone knows youre not what you say you are...

I dunno about Wales but a good example in Ireland are those cheesy taloora loora singers... or stuff like riverdance. As irish as leprechauns knickers are green and as utterly nasty too! :P

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

I dunno about Wales but a good example in Ireland are those cheesy taloora loora singers... or stuff like riverdance. As irish as leprechauns knickers are green and as utterly nasty too! :P

Thanks for giving the question a go, James! Do you think though, that maybe those cheesy things can be justified if they act as a gateway for someone starting serious consideration?

I think the nearest thing we had in Wales was probably the male voice choirs, yet nobody (as far as I know) thought they were cheesy. People got really mad when Clinton mentioned 'Welshing' on a deal though....

[DanieMarie]

Re: Cultural Appropriation

Cultures change and evolve, and get influenced by the people who move there from outside it, and those people change by being in their new environment. I've changed while I've lived here in Berlin, and I've seen Berlin change as more foreigners come into the city.