How do you think Spells work?

[DeadJellyfish]

Re: How do you think Spells work?

Vigdisdotter: Perhaps by your definition (which could be common definition, I have no idea), spells and prayers are different. But to me they mean nearly the same thing. You do have a point though. For me, they are different in the sense that prayer is asking, and spell is doing. But which ever method you use doesn't guarantee it will happen.

My definition of prayer: asking a deity or presence for assistance if it will give it. If a prayer doesn't work it's because the deity doesn't want to (or can't). If the prayer does work it's because the deity help set things into motion (with your help by taking some action, of course).

My definition of a spell: asking the universe for assistance if it will give it. If a spell doesn't work it's because the universe can't because it defies the laws of physics. If a spell does work it's because your energy and intent was sent into the universe (with your help by taking some action of course).

I like to mix those two ideas, so to me a spell is like a prayer. I'm asking my goddess for assistance and guidance, then putting my intent and energy into the universe to help make it happen. I do this at the same time and I feel like it helps me focus even better. I also feel like I can do this casually. I can talk to my goddess without really thinking it through and ask for some assistance. I feel like it works a little, but not as much as a thought out spell because I didn't have enough focus. And then I'll take some steps into actually making my wishes come true. I'm not going to sit around and wait for it to be given to me.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: How do you think Spells work?

Yes it does. Like I said identifying with a deity meant the magic of such a power made it indifferent to "asking".

Why would the difference go away? Someone thinking the world is flat and they will fall of the edge doesn't change it being curved.

Why would prayer stop being about asking? And if you're not asking, why call it prayer?

Both. The line gets blurred when one likens themselves to a deity.

I don't understand what you mean by"liken".

I actually did in my first post that quoted you. There's a link to it.

You did, but none of those have to do with "pulling" from deity which is a forcible action and flies in the face of what prayer is usually used for. So I asked for clarification.

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But which ever method you use doesn't guarantee it will happen.

If you know what you're doing with a spell and are honest with yourself, the results are predictable. Otherwise there would be no point in recording a given spell for later use.

My definition of a spell: asking the universe for assistance if it will give it. If a spell doesn't work it's because the universe can't because it defies the laws of physics. If a spell does work it's because your energy and intent was sent into the universe (with your help by taking some action of course).

I don't ask the anyone or anything for assistance when I do spell work. It's all my energy and effort. And since I know how to work with the laws of physicals, it's not an issue. If a spell doesn't work, it probably is because I didn't do the needed ground work and didn't get my subconscious on the same page as my conscious mind.

I like to mix those two ideas, so to me a spell is like a prayer.

Mixing the ideas is fine, after all you're not limited to using ONLY prayer or spell work in any effort, but claiming they are the SAME idea is a problem. Especially when it comes to teaching a new person who has no frame of reference.

[Caelia]

Re: How do you think Spells work?

Why would the difference go away? Someone thinking the world is flat and they will fall of the edge doesn't change it being curved.

We're not talking about something empirical like the earth's shape. We're talking about a view of magic versus prayer.

That said, the line blurs because of the source of power. Back to my Ancient Egyptian example, this was personified a few ways the easiest concept being heka. Since there was heka in everything, including colors, the line gets blurred because can you truly say that attribute is yours when it's pulling from a divine concept.

Admittedly, this is why I don't agree with the concept. It's because of that notion of a blurred line that it seems mute to call upon the gods for anything. However, the Ancient Egyptians also believe lots of things meant an act of creation. Everything that was observed, said, written, drawn, etc. , was an act of creation.

Why would prayer stop being about asking? And if you're not asking, why call it prayer?

Why not? Like I said there's different forms of prayer and you seem to cite that magic was a form of gaining for yourself. I simply pointed out how that argument could go for your view and for someone else's view.

I don't understand what you mean by"liken".

This should help.

You did, but none of those have to do with "pulling" from deity which is a forcible action and flies in the face of what prayer is usually used for. So I asked for clarification.

That's why I explained with Ancient Egyptian beliefs as an example. While the psychology link spoke in generalities and from a Christian perspective somewhat, the Ancient Egyptian beliefs hold little difference between prayer and magic. It gets to be a mess to untangle just to see where those lines are, though Geraldine Pinch is one who tries to unpack it a bit. Start at the bottom of page 11 and keep reading.

[DeadJellyfish]

Re: How do you think Spells work?

Vigdisdotter:
Exactly, you need to know what you're doing with a spell and etc. I couldn't have put it into better words

Then your definition is nearly the same, except it doesn't involve asking. If both of our spells are working efficiently it shouldn't really matter how we go about it.

But I never said that they ARE the same thing. I said that they are LIKE the same thing. If I were to teach a new person about spell work I would give then my own beliefs and definitions of things in the most specific manner possible. I guess in a way this thread is teaching. It teaches others our own personal opinions on how spells work. I guess I should have been more specific considering, so I apologize. I just like to call prayer and spellwork the same thing because I'm pretty much doing to same thing, no matter if I'm asking a deity or the universe.

[AL!CE]

Re: How do you think Spells work?

For you maybe. I'm not asking when I cast a spell. I'm doing.

How do you do?


The Universe is full of subtleties that humans don't understand and have no direct control over. What does burning candles achieve other than a smokey room? What does chanting achieve other than a sore throat? I don't know how spells work because nobody does and I believe they do work because I've had plenty of positive results, this leads me to the conclusion that spells are like trying to get a waiter's attention at a restaurant. I don't make the soup, I simply demand it. "I'll have the soup." Prayer is the same sh!t just phrased as a question "Can I have the soup?" Either way the waiter is most likely to get me the soup but there's a chance they'll say "Sorry no soup today."

[DeadJellyfish]

Re: How do you think Spells work?

How do you do?


The Universe is full of subtleties that humans don't understand and have no direct control over. What does burning candles achieve other than a smokey room? What does chanting achieve other than a sore throat? I don't know how spells work because nobody does and I believe they do work because I've had plenty of positive results, this leads me to the conclusion that spells are like trying to get a waiter's attention at a restaurant. I don't make the soup, I simply demand it. "I'll have the soup." Prayer is the same sh!t just phrased as a question "Can I have the soup?" Either way the waiter is most likely to get me the soup but there's a chance they'll say "Sorry no soup today."

Haha I just love the soup analogy. It's perfect. I think I'll save it, and I'll quote you of course

[Maria de Luna]

Re: How do you think Spells work?

I'm going to very upfront about the prayers=spells idea: I don't agree with it at all. Actually, I find it false advertising and one of the many things that trips up new people.

A spell is achieved through your own skill and effort. A prayer is asking an outside source for assistance. To put it in mundane terms......

Prayer = Asking Dad for $20
Spelling = Mowing lawns to earn $20

Are they both about getting $20? Yes. However it's not the result that is the deciding factor. It's how you get there. And the means are vastly different; it's those means which makes prayers and spells different.

This makes an interresting point, but is not the best route taking all roads possible? I think thats sort of the argument I would try to make for spells in general, rather than just mowing the lawn, one may need to ask first, dad may not feel like mowing the lawn warrants 20 bucks. But I do see the point you are trying to make, I only mean to say that the definition of actual spellcasting may seem more like prayer to some people, and in many cases spells beseech deity, (not everyones methood, I know) for the aid to accomplish some other task, and in these cases the argument could be made that spell casting is quite similar to prayer, just defined differently to different people.