Should prostitution be legalized?

[volcaniclastic]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

I've been reading the posts and some people seem to imagine a peaceful transaction between a man and a woman, and that's it.
They don't realize the doors it opens for the level of abuse a lot of these women would experience.
This is basically selling yourself for the night. If that's not a form of slavery, I don't know what is.

Then there's many people saying "Oh, you need a choice in case you have to". Do you know the kind of people that would sell their body often because "they had to" (instead of getting 2 jobs)? They would most likely be addicted to some substance and desperate. And, yes, I can imagine some women have kids and they need money~ which brings me back to my first point. When the woman comes home bruised and battered, does she just tell her kids she was earning a little money? Show her daughters that's okay?

It's just a can of worms.
I just don't imagine some well-lit, safe place for women to just gain money this way.

What about legal prostitution for man-man, or woman-woman? Not all prostitution is straight.

And as for safety, that was the whole point I was making - women don't have to come home battered and bruised, as you put it. Selling yourself isn't slavery. You are selling a service, sex, just like a waitress at the bar is selling a service, or an electrician coming to fix your lights is selling a service. If we legalize it, put in rules and safety regulations, it could become a legitimate service. Not just for women, but for men, or gender queer, or whomever.

Maybe I AM just fantasizing a little, but WHY can't this be a legitimate career? And HOW is it different than going into trades, or becoming a doctor? You are a human, selling a service. Nothing more.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

I'm under very few illusions about how the majority of current prostitution is conducted. I want it somewhere I can see it and force safety measures at gunpoint if necessary down the throat of the industry. I also want access to and the ability to enact something resembling divine wrath against a number of people profiting off the current industry. I can't do either one if the prostitutes won't talk to law enforcement for fear of prosecution. It's difficult to protect people who are scared of you.

[Dumuzi]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

It's not straight economic hardship alone that's a problem. I don't particularly care to see an upswing in prostitution legal or otherwise. However, a rather large number of prostitutes are victims of severely unpleasant people and I want the heads of their victimizers on pikes as examples of bad judgement to humanity. It's difficult to identify and convict said individuals if their victims aren't willing to talk to the police. If getting access to human traffickers and some others requires lightening the laws on prostitutes themselves then someone show me a place to sign.

Agreed. It's also odd that it's always women who get in legal trouble because of prostitution. It's never their 'boss' or clients. I'd rather see harsher punishments on the people who use these women.

[Moody Thursday]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

What about legal prostitution for man-man, or woman-woman? Not all prostitution is straight.

And as for safety, that was the whole point I was making - women don't have to come home battered and bruised, as you put it. Selling yourself isn't slavery. You are selling a service, sex, just like a waitress at the bar is selling a service, or an electrician coming to fix your lights is selling a service. If we legalize it, put in rules and safety regulations, it could become a legitimate service. Not just for women, but for men, or gender queer, or whomever.

Maybe I AM just fantasizing a little, but WHY can't this be a legitimate career? And HOW is it different than going into trades, or becoming a doctor? You are a human, selling a service. Nothing more.

The issue of safety is the same for everyone~ Are you going to be alone in a private setting with this person? If not (and you were somehow being watched over), how would this affect the business? Privacy is a big selling point.
How would STD's be approached~ Condoms? HIV tests? No biting, fluid exchange, scratching? Would drug users (including those who share needles) be allowed, and if not, then drug test? To prevent violence, should background checks be made on the customers somehow? Should a background check be made for the prostitute him/herself? If an accident were to happen in a heterosexual meeting, how would a pregnancy be handled?

Your body is not a service. I mean, if you think it could be, then we'll just disagree.

I think there's also many moral implications that we've been through as a society, as well as the health issues of the public. I mean, this isn't Pompeii where everyone can walk around with mouth sores going "Hey, how's it going? Nothing out of the ordinary here. Just me walking my herpes."

I believe instead of moving backwards and letting everyone prostitute themselves (out of necessity, and not choice, would be the saddest part) we could move forward as a society and think of ways we can improve education, work skills, and empowerment of the people who grow up in poverty. You know, move forward with productive and constructive ideas for lasting careers instead of back to an unsure for-the-moment quick buck.
And I know the quick-buck is easy, but it's not anywhere near a permanent or life-long solution.

I mean, think about it. If you grew up poor, would you want the opportunity to 1. Legally have sex with anyone who could look or act like anything, pleasant or not, or 2. Get on a program that will work with your skills and interests to find you a job?

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

No. And people around the world need to raise their sons better, in general.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

It's not straight economic hardship alone that's a problem. I don't particularly care to see an upswing in prostitution legal or otherwise. However, a rather large number of prostitutes are victims of severely unpleasant people and I want the heads of their victimizers on pikes as examples of bad judgement to humanity. It's difficult to identify and convict said individuals if their victims aren't willing to talk to the police. If getting access to human traffickers and some others requires lightening the laws on prostitutes themselves then someone show me a place to sign.

This is exactly why decriminalization is the way to go. I was reading that in Sweden, women whose bodies are being sold are decriminalized, but pimps are still considered criminals under the law.

- - - Updated - - -

The issue of safety is the same for everyone~ Are you going to be alone in a private setting with this person? If not (and you were somehow being watched over), how would this affect the business? Privacy is a big selling point.
How would STD's be approached~ Condoms? HIV tests? No biting, fluid exchange, scratching? Would drug users (including those who share needles) be allowed, and if not, then drug test? To prevent violence, should background checks be made on the customers somehow? Should a background check be made for the prostitute him/herself? If an accident were to happen in a heterosexual meeting, how would a pregnancy be handled?

Your body is not a service. I mean, if you think it could be, then we'll just disagree.

I think there's also many moral implications that we've been through as a society, as well as the health issues of the public. I mean, this isn't Pompeii where everyone can walk around with mouth sores going "Hey, how's it going? Nothing out of the ordinary here. Just me walking my herpes."

I believe instead of moving backwards and letting everyone prostitute themselves (out of necessity, and not choice, would be the saddest part) we could move forward as a society and think of ways we can improve education, work skills, and empowerment of the people who grow up in poverty. You know, move forward with productive and constructive ideas for lasting careers instead of back to an unsure for-the-moment quick buck.
And I know the quick-buck is easy, but it's not anywhere near a permanent or life-long solution.

I mean, think about it. If you grew up poor, would you want the opportunity to 1. Legally have sex with anyone who could look or act like anything, pleasant or not, or 2. Get on a program that will work with your skills and interests to find you a job?

Exactly

[volcaniclastic]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

The issue of safety is the same for everyone~ Are you going to be alone in a private setting with this person? If not (and you were somehow being watched over), how would this affect the business? Privacy is a big selling point.

If it were legalized, and institutions were made, this could be controlled. A controlled setting (ie: brothel) would be much safer than a back alleyway. Just because two strangers are alone together doesn't mean one of them will be abused. What about one-night stands? The only difference to this is the exchange of money.

How would STD's be approached~ Condoms? HIV tests? No biting, fluid exchange, scratching? Would drug users (including those who share needles) be allowed, and if not, then drug test? To prevent violence, should background checks be made on the customers somehow? Should a background check be made for the prostitute him/herself? If an accident were to happen in a heterosexual meeting, how would a pregnancy be handled?

Testing. Set up an organization, with rules and regulations. Men (and women) looking for services, must submit to a physical. Any STD's, no dice. Simple. Condoms are mandatory, any allergies would be listed in the applicant's history file. It doesn't need to be so sanitary like a hospital, but hygiene is essential. Showers before interactions, etc.

As for violence, I don't see violence towards a prostitute as being any different than violence towards a spouse. It's bad, and wrong. If a client is into BDSM, they would state so, and someone who is also (the prostitute) into it, would be paired up. Call signs. Signals. If an affair is going wrong, a silent button, or some way of signalling outside help. Why is this hard? Criminal records checks. Anyone with previous charges of abuse wouldn't be accepted, etc.

Pregnancy = abortion.

I believe instead of moving backwards and letting everyone prostitute themselves (out of necessity, and not choice, would be the saddest part) we could move forward as a society and think of ways we can improve education, work skills, and empowerment of the people who grow up in poverty. You know, move forward with productive and constructive ideas for lasting careers instead of back to an unsure for-the-moment quick buck.
And I know the quick-buck is easy, but it's not anywhere near a permanent or life-long solution.

I mean, think about it. If you grew up poor, would you want the opportunity to 1. Legally have sex with anyone who could look or act like anything, pleasant or not, or 2. Get on a program that will work with your skills and interests to find you a job?

And what if the person thought that prostitution was a respected profession? What if we altered the rules to make it so? I could never be a carpenter, because I'm not very good at building, but as an example, I am good at sex, and I could choose to become a prostitute (there needs to be a less derogatory word for that, really) and I would be working a job where my skills were valuable, just like a baker in a cafe who is good at making muffins.

There needs to be safety, I'm not disagreeing with you. There needs to not be abuse, or transfer of STDs, or any of that. There does need to be rules, and things like child trafficking and rape and demoralization of women (and men) needs to stop big time. But if we enforce rules, and legalize it, and make a safe way for people to get out (if they want), and a safe way for people to get in (if they want) - ie: get rid of abusive pimps and clients, and I'm repeating myself, but make rules, I just don't see the big deal. Enforce an age restriction. Kids can't buy cigs, and neither should they be able to sell their bodies at a young age, but when they come of age, if they CHOOSE...

But I don't think it harms our societal moral standing by legalizing this. I think that we would grow as a civilization, because sex is no big deal. It is beautiful, and consensual, and sacred.

[Moody Thursday]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

But I don't think it harms our societal moral standing by legalizing this. I think that we would grow as a civilization, because sex is no big deal. It is beautiful, and consensual, and sacred.

Not if you're just doing it 'cause you have to earn money fast. Not quite beautiful if you stop to *think* about what kind of people you might encounter that would come to you for sex. Am I the only one thinking that Fabio wouldn't be a regular customer? LoL That, in a more serious note, perhaps you'd let yourself have sex with someone really sick (mentally or physically) just for some money?

I'll end my opinion by saying that it's not worked in a lovely, clean way in the past before (or currently, if we look at other parts of the world). It's not progressive. I just happen to value intelligence, hard work, and activities that improve lives (especially for women). And sleeping with person after person, faking a show, being sold like a hunk of meat until you're old and used up doesn't sound like it's very empowering.


When your whole life is diminished to just being a warm fleshlight, will that really give you a sense of worth?

[MaskedOne]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

This is exactly why decriminalization is the way to go. I was reading that in Sweden, women whose bodies are being sold are decriminalized, but pimps are still considered criminals under the law.

How long has the system been in place and does it seem to work?

I'm not overly picky how the issue is handled if at the end of the day the decision to beat a prostitute reliably earns metal jewelry and the decision to traffic in sex slaves means you get 25-life at best and leave the prison system wishing you had never thought of the idea.

[shadow1982]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

I'll end my opinion by saying that it's not worked in a lovely, clean way in the past before (or currently, if we look at other parts of the world). It's not progressive. I just happen to value intelligence, hard work, and activities that improve lives (especially for women). And sleeping with person after person, faking a show, being sold like a hunk of meat until you're old and used up doesn't sound like it's very empowering.

I'm pretty sure brothels are legal in Australia and it works pretty well for them. The girls are safe (there are bouncers and cctv), they have regular STD checks and the clients are checked IIRC. There was a documentary a while back that focused on one in Melbourne.

I think you and volcaniclastic may be talking at cross purposes here. You are referring to people who do it to earn money fast, or because they see little other choice, and she is talking about people who choose to do it because they want to. I have to say I actually find some of your last post a little judgemental. You may not personally find it empowering but you can't speak for every woman and the choices they may make regarding their own bodies.

[Moody Thursday]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

I had to come back and add that I didn't say that was "the last of my opinion" to have the last word, but as it turns out, I'm not going to be a fleshlight for a living, so I have classes to take and might not have time to come back Kudos if you want to be a prostitute, I guess (whether that's offensive or empowering is entirely up to you). I have to go.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

Not if you're just doing it 'cause you have to earn money fast.

You're right, there are other ways of earning money fast. But that's not what I'm talking about.

Not quite beautiful if you stop to *think* about what kind of people you might encounter that would come to you for sex. Am I the only one thinking that Fabio wouldn't be a regular customer? LoL That, in a more serious note, perhaps you'd let yourself have sex with someone really sick (mentally or physically) just for some money?

Yes, because only the mentally deranged and physically repulsive would stoop so low as to have sex with a stranger for money. Do all your sexual partners look like Fabio, too? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, to quote the cliche. You don't have to be 6 foot 5, with abs of steel to be considered of sexually worth, do you?

Someone with a mental disorder still deserves intimacy. Someone with a physical disorder still deserves intimacy. Someone who is fat, can't find a lover, has acne, or social issues still deserves to feel intimacy.

Obviously, the homocidal, the ones with weird, WEIRD fetish (necrophilia, etc) wouldn't be allowed. Again with the rules and testing.

I'll end my opinion by saying that it's not worked in a lovely, clean way in the past before (or currently, if we look at other parts of the world). It's not progressive. I just happen to value intelligence, hard work, and activities that improve lives (especially for women).

World peace isn't progressive. Who decides what progresses a civilization? And who decides what is considered to be civilized?

I just happen to value intelligence, hard work, and activities that improve lives (especially for women). And sleeping with person after person, faking a show, being sold like a hunk of meat until you're old and used up doesn't sound like it's very empowering.


When your whole life is diminished to just being a warm fleshlight, will that really give you a sense of worth?

Have you had sex before? With more than one partner? Do you feel like nothing but a warm fleshlight when you take a man or woman home from a bar?

If things were regulated, you would not be 'sold like a hunk of meat'. You would be valued, and you would make your own choices. HOW is that NOT empowering?

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not going to be a fleshlight for a living, so I have classes to take and might not have time to come back Kudos if you want to be a prostitute, I guess (whether that's offensive or empowering is entirely up to you). I have to go.

As a side note to this, I'm a scientist. I went to school for six years. I'm also a photographer on the side, and I make money on and off during archery or cycling competitions. I'm still okay with prostitution.

[thalassa]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

I went to college with a girl on full scholarship who graduated with honors that had a number of "sugar daddies". She made about $2-3000 a week, in college, in the late 90's. On top of that, one of them bought her a car, another paid for her books for four years, and she was able to pay for graduate school, her wedding, their first house and a second car...by selling herself for companionship.

...I also know a number of guys that have done the male equivalent.

[Ophidia]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

I've heavily considered becoming a legalized prostitute here in Nevada. My biggest beef w/our brothels is that they are only legal in counties with populations below 400,000 people. Other regulations put in place restrict how close they can be to schools and various types of businesses. Which means they are all waaaay out in the middle of nowhere.

For me, as a person beginning to find work right out of high school with very few marketable skills beyond knowing how to clean, I found myself with that awesome choice between a food service job or becoming a housekeeper. Prostitution sounded easy, it was something I had (and still have ) mad skills for, and it seemed like I could make good money fast and retire early. The big problem for me at that time was that you have to be 21 here to work in a brothel. I ended up becoming a hotel 'guest room attendant' for a couple of years & finally fabricated a resume to get a front desk job. That's pretty much what a lot of kids do here since they can't get 'real' Vegas jobs until they turn 21 - they take McJobs, hotel/resort non-gaming jobs (food service, entertainment, housekeeping), retail and construction jobs if they have the necessary skills. Very few high school kids fresh from graduation think to themselves, "I'm going to be a prostitute!" Enlarging the scope of legal prostitution in Nevada is not going to change that.

I agree, prostitution is an act of economic desperation, pressure from an outside source, or in some cases, novelty. Many women in our brothels here were actually pushed into it by family or spouses/partners. There's a lot of disillusionment about the kind of money a legal prostitute makes.

We do need some serious reform in our prostitution system. Almost all legal prostitutes are independent contractors, which means they are responsible for their own tax management, health care, etc. Many brothels have almost prison-like rules regarding curfews, require the prostitutes to live on property & charge them room, board & supplies, and there is a system of referrals via hotels & taxi drivers that give a kickback to the referrer that comes out of the prostitute's share of the money paid by the client. Some brothels have a no-refusal policy, and others charge steep fines for infractions like being caught napping, being late to a line-up (where the client chooses the prostitute), taking too long to clean up between customers or under-negotiating the prices.

Then there is the issue of quitting, being fired or retiring. Unlike Hugh Hefner's Bunnies, many of whom have gotten their degrees & developed their own businesses, most legal sex workers don't have those kinds of opportunities. Some of our brothels are so freakin' isolated that they don't have reliable internet connections. It's hard to earn a degree when you're not allowed off-premises, don't have set breaks or regular days off, and share living space. It's also hard to expand on new marketable skills when your world is so small. It used to be that in Vegas, if you were a former sex worker, you couldn't get a gaming work card, which allowed you to be a cocktail server, Keno runner, dealer, bartender, etc. They loosened up some of those restrictions to help give people a way to get back into mainstream employment. In other places, though, former sex workers are usually not hired - even if they lie on an application, it's hard to justify a huge gap in an employment history. Long-term brothel life can be as institutionalizing as prison life - the workers have a very small social circle, they're usually isolated from friends & family, have a hard time making new friends since most interactions with 'strangers' have been carefully engineered, they have to relearn how to shop for themselves and pay bills to a variety of companies instead of just one person. There's also money management skills - any savings a sex worker may have accrued is just as easily spent once they're back in the 'real world'. If a sex worker gets 'fired', well, they're independent contractors, so, uh, good luck filing for unemployment.

I don't think prostitution should be legal everywhere because dammit, I work here and I need those fat tourist dollars! I think NV is one of the better places for it to exist because we are primarily a tourism state, and secondarily a mining/industrial state. We're not really family-friendly, no matter how much people keep trying to re-sculpt us. Most of our tourists are looking for a good time (we have a shifting clientele, though - we're getting a lot more business travel since Vegas has scaled back some of its COMDEX-heyday convention pricing) and legalized sex work can be part of that.

Just scanning through our Nevada Revised Statutes, there are numerous laws about pandering, trafficking, advertising & health compliance, but none regarding the labor relations between prostitute & brothel management. I don't even think the Labor Department covers our sex workers, and because they're 'independent contractors', they're not as protected as an 'employee'. Our sex workers could probably use a union. And some coordination with the Labor Board, EOB, OSHA, & what-not wouldn't hurt.

Here's an interesting study done by UNLV: http://faculty.unlv.edu/brents/research/socpersp.pdf

[Aeran]

Re: Should prostitution be legalized?

I think it's impossible to say at this stage, just as it is with drug policy. What I'd like to see in both cases is a slow shift from hardline prohibition positions to an exploration and rigorous evaluation of various policies further along the spectrum towards decriminalization or full legalization, with the aim of eventually striking a balance in the position which causes the least harm to society.

Just saying 'yup, they're legal now' wouldn't solve either problem, it's a question of adjusting the socioeconomic framework around these activities to create an environment in which they cause less harm to the individual and to society as a whole. on the flip side, you have to accept that such behaviors are never going to go away and will always have a place in society and be in need of management.