Forced Sterilization in Prison

[Luce]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Wasn't it more socially acceptable for teens to have children (inside marriage of course) in 1955?

The 1950s was the very worst decade for out of wedlock births in American history. Worse even than the roaring 20s.

[Heka]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Fair enough

[Medusa]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Please stop using the Nazis as the end all of all arguments. I don't want my thread closed. And it's a rule. Once the Nazis come, the thread is dunzo. :='(:

I personally believe once a woman kills her born child, she doesn't get to have any more. I don't care if that's sterilization or death.

[thalassa]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Which is why I'm up in the air. Something needs to change and our society isn't fixing it the way it is. But I get this too.

I'm with Luce here. If you pay real, careful attention to history, you'd find that yeah, people can be shitty. And when they can be shitty, they generally are. But on average, we are far less shitty now that we have ever been. I would rather be born now, than any other time that has past. Quite honestly, I'm a bit tired of this whole "woe is me" thing in terms of where we are as a society--we are no worse off than we have ever been, and really...we are a helluva lot better. Progress is slow, its hard work, and there are no magic bullets. The arc of the universe tends to bend towards justice, but it is long and its bend can only be measured over generations. And when we go about invading people's bodies and conducting medical procedures, whether its putting all underage girls on birth control or tying the tubes of inmates, we are aiding those that would defy justice.

I personally believe once a woman kills her born child, she doesn't get to have any more. I don't care if that's sterilization or death.

A very small, little box. I believe they are called jail cells. Until she dies. And if, by chance her sentence is shorter than that, it should at least be long enough that she's gone through menopause. And if, by chance, she still becomes a mother, so much government intervention--inspections, parenting classes, meetings, etc--that she can't see straight...........OR............why not put that you can't keep custody of any children you might have into the sentence?

[Medusa]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

A very small, little box. I believe they are called jail cells. Until she dies. And if, by chance her sentence is shorter than that, it should at least be long enough that she's gone through menopause. And if, by chance, she still becomes a mother, so much government intervention--inspections, parenting classes, meetings, etc--that she can't see straight...........OR............why not put that you can't keep custody of any children you might have into the sentence?

Yes, it would be great that if you killed your child, you would go to jail for life. Seems that isn't the case nowadays, which blows my dang mind. Yes, it would be great to leave her there till after menapause too. But as the above, it doesn't seem to happen.

I guess I wish that could also happen to the child molesters as well. But sometimes all the government intervention, inspections, predator classes, meetings just doesn't do shit.



As for not being able to keep your children after the sentence? I'd like that too. But many a child abuser still gets to keep custody of their kids.

The problem is all the loopholes. And until that gets taken care of...

I think if you kill your child you should be put to death.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

why not put that you can't keep custody of any children you might have into the sentence?

Sometimes, they do... It does not stop these crazy women from trying....

That said, I saw this thing spring up yesterday and had a little trouble putting fingers to keyboard... The particular hospital I work at has a contract with the state and CPS. When incarcerated women come in to give birth, they come here, so do people in mental health watch, as do people with certain "histories." In the last 8 years there has been a particular patient who had had as many children in as many years, CPS has all but three, the first she throttled upon recieving it. The infant did not survive. Two others were released to family, who became convinced that she could handle them, and that she "deserved" to have her children, they are no longer alive eigther. This woman has had 1 charge brought against her, and she has not spent any time in jail. This lady is insane. This woman keeps trying to have more children, and we will continue to take them from her as soon as she has them.
Knowing how many women come in here, knowing that DSS will take their children, knowing that these children will keep coming, I am still against forced sterilization. I am against forced birth control and I am against applications to bear children, but the question is about forced sterilization and I don't think it is ok. I don't know who woulod come up with what qualifies you for forced sterilization. SIDS is a thing and not everyone who has a child who has been affected by this should be sterilized, absolutely not, but where would we draw that line? how would we know when we have gone far enough?
Wouldnt a better solution be education? Education about what to look for in certain people, education about proper use of birth control and education that using it won't send you to hell. Education that it is ok not to have a huge family, that it is not nessecary to have babies to be a woman. It won't prevent all the crazy ladies from having babies and killing them, but i bet it would prevent at least one, and that would be better then none, and it would be better than making people not have human rights anymore. Criminals get many rights, even the ones on death row have rights to proper medical treatment, other people should not be forced into improper medical care. It just is not right.

This opinion is my own and you are free to disagree...

[Optimistic discord]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

I'm with Luce here. If you pay real, careful attention to history, you'd find that yeah, people can be shitty. And when they can be shitty, they generally are. But on average, we are far less shitty now that we have ever been. I would rather be born now, than any other time that has past. Quite honestly, I'm a bit tired of this whole "woe is me" thing in terms of where we are as a society--we are no worse off than we have ever been, and really...we are a helluva lot better. Progress is slow, its hard work, and there are no magic bullets. The arc of the universe tends to bend towards justice, but it is long and its bend can only be measured over generations. And when we go about invading people's bodies and conducting medical procedures, whether its putting all underage girls on birth control or tying the tubes of inmates, we are aiding those that would defy justice.



A very small, little box. I believe they are called jail cells. Until she dies. And if, by chance her sentence is shorter than that, it should at least be long enough that she's gone through menopause. And if, by chance, she still becomes a mother, so much government intervention--inspections, parenting classes, meetings, etc--that she can't see straight...........OR............why not put that you can't keep custody of any children you might have into the sentence?

I am fascinated how every generation thinks the one below it is more stupid/corrupt/evil, its silly and blatantly not true .

Its like crime in the UK most people think its getting worse when figures have consistently shown the opposite, of course its not helped that the government and media thrive on our fear. Its why they now talk about "the fear of crime" and how that is rising...

Well yes its rising, because they keep feeding us stories of how bad life is.

I do think if everyone just pulled their heads out of the dark crevices that media had shoved them into , just maybe they would see that there is a lot of good out there.

[thalassa]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Wouldnt a better solution be education? Education about what to look for in certain people, education about proper use of birth control and education that using it won't send you to hell. Education that it is ok not to have a huge family, that it is not nessecary to have babies to be a woman. It won't prevent all the crazy ladies from having babies and killing them, but i bet it would prevent at least one, and that would be better then none, and it would be better than making people not have human rights anymore. Criminals get many rights, even the ones on death row have rights to proper medical treatment, other people should not be forced into improper medical care. It just is not right.

I agree with the part about education. Education, real education--starting in at least preschool with the idea of bodily autonomy and respect (if not earlier), through grade school with a science-based education in general health (from body systems to nutrition to how to cook), into junior high and high school with a fully comprehensive sex ed with access to reproductive health services, and child development and parenting classes...about finances and the financial reality of what it costs to live...I could go on, but I'm thinking we get the idea.

The problems that we have as a society can't be fixed with a band-aid. They need to be prevented, and another, better, system, based on efficacy--on good science, needs to be introduce (like abstinence only education...it sucks, so why the hell are their still schools with it?).

And effing shows the one with the Duggar's don't help. I don't doubt that those people love their children, but...that lifestyle is rarely as benign as it looks on TV.

[MoonRaven]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Please stop using the Nazis as the end all of all arguments. I don't want my thread closed. And it's a rule. Once the Nazis come, the thread is dunzo. :='(:.

No rule without exception apparently, because they were brought up and this thread is still open.

And I know I was the one to bring those-who-shall-not-be-named up first, but in the context I found it valid. While I did realise there was a risk of emotions running away with people I couldn't see a way of addressing my issue without them. I shall try to keep them out of the discussion from now on. Sorry. I never intended them as an 'end all argument' but as a point in case because they were both the most extreme but also the best known. What for instance the Italian Fascists did or what was done in Communist Russia, ditto China or for that matter by various regimes in Latin America is less well know and I'd have to spend a lot of time on giving history lessons rather than arguing a point.
But I shall endevour to keep them out of it henceforth.

[Willow]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

I like kids, some come to hug me at work just because and some try to pull down all my marketing signage in the windows. But still cute!

[thalassa]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

And I know I was the one to bring those-who-shall-not-be-named up first, but in the context I found it valid.

I think I might have actually brought him up before you...

Medusa was mostly refering, I think, to something known as Godwin's Law--generally once its been invoked, the thread dies a swift and often obnoxious death. Sometimes though, I think that Hitler, et al, are perfectly natural progressions of a topic, if only because they are the very worst and most well known examples in topics like this.

[Medusa]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Yeah. I get scared of the Hitler talk. It's usually the omen of the death of a thread. So far, this thread lives. Yay!

[Luce]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

I think I might have actually brought him up before you...

Medusa was mostly refering, I think, to something known as Godwin's Law--generally once its been invoked, the thread dies a swift and often obnoxious death. Sometimes though, I think that Hitler, et al, are perfectly natural progressions of a topic, if only because they are the very worst and most well known examples in topics like this.

Godwin doesn't apply if you're discussing actual Nazism.

[Medusa]

Re: Forced Sterilization in Prison

Godwin doesn't apply if you're discussing actual Nazism.

It's just a long standing issue around here, that's all. By the time a thread is over 8 pages, Nazis get mentioned and the thread goes to sleep.