Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

I'm not irate - I mean, whatever she wants to do, it's her ceremony of choice. I just think her choice is stupid. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Stupid or not, my issue is the idea that any group has exclusive ownership of a ceremony and that anyone else using it is "making a mockery" is simply creating an US vs. THEM scenario, which doesn't help anything.

[thalassa]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

TBH, I don't even see a handfasting as being explicitly Pagan. More like a Christianized folk tradition possibly originating in a pagan culture and adopted by contemporary Paganism via Wicca. Which (while I do see it as dumb, mainly because, if you wanted to get married, you could just jot to the registar/justice of the peace/whatever brits call it and be really married for the cheap) is why I really don't see what the biggie is. If people want a handfasting, cool... I might also add, that here in the US a handfasting can be official as long as the person performing it is an official officiant of weddings. Our UU minister has presided over a handfasting or two...

(does not knowing who atomic kitten is make me old? Maybe I'll know once I see the vid, buy I'm @ work & its blocked right now)

[Kahlenda]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

What's sad is I didn't see pagan or wicca even mentioned in the article. I seems she saw it on tv and thought it was nice. Are the couple on the soap pagan?

no they arn't tbf i dont actually watch the soap i cant stand them though on the inside soap this is what the actor says about it, and from what i can gather after asking my mum this is what happened in the soap.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/emmerdale-spoilers-lesley-dunlop-tony-2048643

It’s not a joint decision. Brenda wants to surprise him, but you can’t just turn up and get married. So Gennie comes up with the idea of this pagan handfasting ceremony. I’d never heard of it. It’s very interesting, an alternative wedding ceremony. Meanwhile, Bob is planning a proposal that will knock her socks off.

im gunna go on a hunt and see if i can get an online copy of the episode

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

Honestly this doesn't surprise me at all. Not the flakiness of having seen it on tv. Nor the irate responses. But frankly I think both are silly. People do realize that the sanctity of the ceremony is the reason many Christians cite as why gay marriage shouldn't be allowed, right? Do those of you who object really want to be in that camp?

If she wants a handfasting, so what? Even if it turns out to be a farse, that in no way impacts on the joy, beauty or validity if anyone else's.

From a flakey aspect it just strikes me as an action of a has been actress trying to recapture some of the limelight again. I use actress for it seems most singers today are more actress than actual singer from the videos.

As a ceremony it's what ever it will be for whomever has such a marriage ceremony and what they get from it. No two will ever be alike nor raise the exact same emotions and energy so the only similarity I really see is in the name itself. Regardless of it being used to bind two men, two women or a man and woman in a union.

- - - Updated - - -

Stupid or not, my issue is the idea that any group has exclusive ownership of a ceremony and that anyone else using it is "making a mockery" is simply creating an US vs. THEM scenario, which doesn't help anything.

I think for me it appears as if it is being done in jest until the real thing is available. That suggests it is a mockery to begin with at worse or a Quaint ceremony that backwards people do which sort of romanticizes the past which again is a form of mockery of its own in my opinion. But more so with the article disclaimer that it's only being done till they have the money for a real wedding.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

I think for me it appears as if it is being done in jest until the real thing is available. That suggests it is a mockery to begin with at worse or a Quaint ceremony that backwards people do which sort of romanticizes the past which again is a form of mockery of its own in my opinion. But more so with the article disclaimer that it's only being done till they have the money for a real wedding.

You're free to assume that, but why would it matter? Does her doing so (if that is indeed the case) some how invalidate anyone else's handfasting? Her behaviour reflects on her. Not any tradition she might be pulling from.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

You're free to assume that, but why would it matter? Does her doing so (if that is indeed the case) some how invalidate anyone else's handfasting? Her behaviour reflects on her. Not any tradition she might be pulling from.

Bolded mine.

I suppose it bothers me the most because I lived through the 70's, 80's and 90's when so many fought for their pagan rights then came the next group that started the "What does it matter?" and it's a free for all of do as you want. As such her behavior reflects upon all who claim or walk a paganism pathway as that becomes part of the public face of all of our practices. Seen it happen far to often, especially when no one objects to it and by their silence condones or implies support of it.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

I suppose it bothers me the most because I lived through the 70's, 80's and 90's when so many fought for their pagan rights then came the next group that started the "What does it matter?" and it's a free for all of do as you want.

Except that she's not claiming to be part of any tradition. So again, why does it matter?

And was active in the 90s. I was on the ground floor with the $RW nonsense among others. I'm still pretty hard core about people claiming/misusing labels. So I do get the concern, but I fail to see how it applies in this case. Nor have you answered my question about it invalidating anyone else's rite.

As such her behavior reflects upon all who claim or walk a paganism pathway as that becomes part of the public face of all of our practices.

It doesn't reflect on me. I simply will not allow others to "speak" for me. I'm quite happy to speak for myself and will cheerfully pipe up to address erroneous information or assumptions. But I'm not about to get my knickers in a twist over how something MIGHT be perceived and how someone MIGHT think I do X because so-and-so did X.

Out of curiosity, I have to ask, if a woman who is not a virgin wears a white dress at her wedding, do you think she's making a mockery of marriage? Or do you think she's just wearing the dress she likes?

[Claude]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

To be perfectly honest I don't care what kind of wedding she has. What's more concerning to me is the fact that according to the original article it's not a legally binding ceremony.

[Poshi]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

A few things:
1) I understand the reason for being annoyed with her, but you have to realize that she probably isn't aware that her actions are offensive. She might not even be aware people actually still use handfasting ceremonies with a serious attitude. The number of people I've met in my life who don't have any idea Pagans are real is ridiculously high, and I live in a very active Pagan community.
2) I think the thing that concerns me most is the fact that this TV show was advertising handfastings as cute little ceremonies without really looking into what they mean to the people who take them seriously. It's being viewed as exotic, not as cultural or religious. I think the TV show is more at fault than the celebrity. If she truly isn't aware of the way Pagans live, how could she know any better with having a soap being her only source of information on the topic?

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

If she wants a handfasting, so what? Even if it turns out to be a farse, that in no way impacts on the joy, beauty or validity if anyone else's.

Cool, someone said what I was thinking already!

[thalassa]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

I think the thing that concerns me most is the fact that this TV show was advertising handfastings as cute little ceremonies without really looking into what they mean to the people who take them seriously. It's being viewed as exotic, not as cultural or religious. I think the TV show is more at fault than the celebrity. If she truly isn't aware of the way Pagans live, how could she know any better with having a soap being her only source of information on the topic?

But...handfasting isn't pagan...its a Christian folk ceremony (which may or may not have originated in an older pagan culture, but there's not really any evidence of that) which has been adopted by contemporary Pagans. So, at best, I guess you could say that handfasting is a contemporary Pagan tradition based on a historical mistake...and that the soap opera scene was maybe based on that but its actually quite a lovely scene. Nor, for that matter, do all Pagans get handfasted.

Its a bit long, but this article by a medieval scholar covers handfasting and marriage pretty well. The pertinent parts:

Historical Handfasting

no marriage but only if there had been no sex at all. (So in the 1562 quote above, the betrothed couples who "continewis in manifest fornicatioun" are actually legally married, but the church leaders are insisting that they get married again, this time properly in church.)


Though the civil law remained essentially the same, the cultural customs surrounding marriage did change over the nearly four centuries between the Scottish Reformation and 1940. Of relevance to the issue of handfasting, in regularly formed marriages formal betrothal ceremonies (handfastings) faded away; it would appear that by the late 17th century, they were no longer practiced, or at the very least hand changed in nature and terminlogy such that they were no longer called "handfasting" (Leneman, c. 3).


It is also worth noting that the verb "handfast" and verbal noun "handfasting" in Scotland in the late 17th century were used to mean "to enter into an engagement of service" and "the joining of hands in engaging an employee", respectively (DOST, s.vv. handfast, handfasting).
Mythical Handfasting

Well after formal betrothals called "handfastings" had ceased to be actually practiced in Scotland, a curious myth arose in the late 18th century that "handfasting" referred a trial marriage of a year and a day after which the partners could either marry permanently or part freely and that this kind of "handfasting" had been practiced in former times but not currently.
A.E. Anton, in "'Handfasting' in Scotland", very thoroughly looked into the myth of handfasting being trial marriage and discovered that the myth that handfasting in Scotland was any kind of marriage rather than betrothal could not be traced any further back than the late 18th century, to Thomas Pennant in his Tour in Scotland (London, 1790) recounting his tour of 1772...

(snip)

...Pennant seems unaware that a clergyman was completely unneccessary for legal marriage in Scotland before the Reformation (just as one was unneccessary after the Reformation).
This is the first association of "handfasting" with supposed trial marriages of a year and a day, and even it is described as being "now obsolete" and "in use about a century past" and only occuring in one small place in the border regions. Compare this second hand rumour about practices a century earlier (recorded by a man "who was not very studious of the facts when he wanted embellishment") to the facts that are known about historical handfasting and marriage in the Middle Ages and first part of the Early Modern period as discussed above. The known facts of handfasting and marriage are incompatible with Pennant's rumour. Yet it is to Pennant's rumour that all subsequent elaborations of the myth of handfasting as trial marriage can be traced.


(snip--she talks about other uses of this idea in literature)
Neopagan Handfasting

So by the mid-to-late 20th century, the myth of "handfasting" as an ancient pagan Celtic practice of trial marriage for a year and a day after which, if there are no children, the couple may choose to part freely or else marry permanently, was a well established and well known idea. At this stage, in the late 20th century, or perhaps somewhat earlier, there was a new permutation. Followers of various Neopagan religions, believing the myth to be an actual pre-Christian practice, adopted the form of the myth into their own modern religious practices and ceremonies.


Over time, various Neopagan religious groups altered and added to the details. In some modern traditions the length of time became variable rather than a year and a day. In some the temporary union became renewable mulitple times rather than a one time choice of marry or part. Unaware of the true historical origins of the term "handfasting" (that is, as a term signifying a handshake), the word was reanalyzed and re-interpreted as signifying that a cord had been tied around the couple's hands or wrists as part of the ceremony, so this feature was incorporated into the modern ceremonies. At some stage, some groups began to use "handfasting" as a synonym for legal marriage rather than for religiously recognized but legally unrecognized temporary sexual unions. And in recent years, some groups, coming almost full circle, started to use "handfasting" to mean a formal engagement to be married in the future (though this may be simply a variation on the temporary sexual union that may lead to marriage theme).

[EndlessCravings]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

Well... if she wants a handfasting,that's her.

[Heka]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

Meh, I don't care. And I don't really care where handfastings came from. All I know is that it was important to me to do something 'alternative/pagan/wiccan/magical etc' and not exclusively christian in my wedding, done by a uniting church minister, who was actually very happy to do it because he knew someone who had written a book on traditional irish weddings that mentioned it. So we were happy. If xyz celeb wants to do it, I don't care. It's interesting in passing, but beyond that, I don't feel it's affecting my religion or beliefs at all. Good luck to her.

[boyo1991]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

I think a lot of people see it as unique and different, which they want for their union. To me, it doesn't matter the way you've committed yourselves to each other, as long as you did. I just don't like it personally when people do a handfasting, and then ask me to perform the union. Just blurting out "your wiccan aren't you?" This is when my arrogance radar kicks in a little :P Other than this, It's just a ceremony, the meaning you put behind it is more important. The energies that surround it.

[Auseklis]

Re: Celebs want pagan Handfasting.

Each to their own... I don't care what she does with her private life.