Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

[Torey]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

Among most other pagans I know (from numerous traditions), there's a heavy aversion to sex ritual, sexual magic, and, to an extent, even nude ritual. Among the groups that I know personally, this resistance comes strongest from Wicca, which is understandable considering the stereotypes.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "stereotypes" - can you elaborate further on that statement?

I also have never known Wiccans (or Neo-Pagans in general) personally who were adverse to nudity or sex magick, but I should qualify that by stating that I have not known many IRL. There may be a broader negative response amongst Neo-Wiccans to sex magick and nudity - I just simply have not witnessed it.

But I'm curious, in a case where the tradition legitimately calls for it, what do you guys think of sex ritual? Is there a divide between private and "public" (i.e. before your group, coven, etc.) ritual?

If you are asking about our views on sex magick from our own respective traditions, then I would have to say that my tradition (although I am a solitary practitioner) does have a very heavy inclination towards using the natural concept of human sexuality as a tool for raising energy as well as a tool for psychological development. Psychologically speaking, nudity and sex in ritual serves the purpose of liberation - bolstering Self-confidence and Self-image as we believe that the Self is inherently Divine in its natural state. Nudity is truly the natural state of the body.

Theistic Satanism is essentially a solitary tradition which allows for group workings. Thus, sex magick has its place within the solitary practice as well as the group practice. Masturbation is a common Energy-raising technique within ritual work. I am not comfortable practicing nude myself at this point in my life for personal reasons - but I'm sure that will change later on. Regarding ritual sex within a group setting, for my tradition there is of course what is known as the Black Mass in which sex plays a very predominant role. I can imagine that few people, aside from Theistic Satanists, would be keen to participate in a Black Mass due to their perception of some of the content as distasteful, but most Satanists (LaVeyan and Theistic) understand the meaning behind the symbolic actions and are not opposed to it. That being said, I'm sure there are Satanists who would not participate in it for whatever reason, as well.

Physically performed heiros gamos (divine marriage)?

This is something that I have been researching and wishing to develop further for my own tradition as, overall, my path does not have a place for such a ritual or concept as it generally does not recognise any Divine polarity and, as such, any heiros gamos. However, I personally recognise a number of Feminine Energies regarded as Goddesses which innately embody aspects of Sacred Sexuality - hence my interest in developing rituals designed to draw upon these energies as well as to honour Them.

Were I practicing within a group, I would myself be opposed to nudity for myself only because of my personal aversion to it. I would have no issue with others being nude. That being said, there is no real historical use of nudity or sex magick within my tradition as it is not a reconstructionist tradition - it has meaning, but not necessity.

If all of the members of a group were keen and willing, as well as wholly informed, then such things certainly should have a place IMHO, especially if it was historically relevant to the tradition. I agree, however, that if someone is opposed to it for whatever reason, then it would be a no-go. If members wished to practice such techniques privately, then that is there prerogative of course.

[Orecha]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

You've been hanging out with the wrong Pagans

Apparently!

The whole cup-and-dagger replacement for the Great Rite doesn't sit well with them at all - it's gotta be the real thing.

I've always felt the same.

Back to the primary question though? If people are hesitant, in a group, I would think it would have to be a no or you have to accept losing those members.
[...]
Despite my weirdness, I don't see why sex magic and nudity wouldn't have a place in a religion. Clearly it does, but it just has to have the right audience. But there is something to consider if you are trying to go mainstream. I think ritual nudity definitely colors the impression an outsider has a group, no matter how open minded. Are you looking for a practice that is for only your own benefit? Then who cares? But if you are looking to open a temple? That would change things. Like Medusa said when discussing satanism; there's baggage; you need to decide if you want to carry it.

I'm aware of the baggage that comes with it, and that's one of the primary reasons some of us are resistant. Losing members, not gaining members, inspiring the villagers to grab torches and pitchforks... These are all fears. This wouldn't be private, so these things are something to consider.

When reconstructing an ancient religion, we have to take a close look at each thing we want to reconstruct and ask, "is this truly relevant? Is there another, more modern, way to do this? Can we safely leave this thing out and what does that mean for our religion if we do? Can we modify this thing, keep the context that makes it sacred, and go forward with it that way?" And there are certainly other questions to ask.In traditions that legitimately call for it, I think it needs to be decided on a group by group, person by person basis. I would personally hesitate throwing out some of a tradition's rituals just because they include sex.

That's kind of been my stance. Why throw it out just because it's sexual. I mean, what are we? Medieval Christians?

I'm not sure what you mean by the "stereotypes" - can you elaborate further on that statement?

Primarily the stereotype of Wiccans as sex-crazed loonies who go around having sex with everyone they meet, having sex with goats and children, and all of that propagandized bull.

Psychologically speaking, nudity and sex in ritual serves the purpose of liberation - bolstering Self-confidence and Self-image as we believe that the Self is inherently Divine in its natural state. Nudity is truly the natural state of the body.

It's eerie how similar this is to how my tradition views nudity as well. It's about returning to our birth state and dropping boundaries between ourselves and the divine, as well as between each other.

I generally don't have a problem with it, as long as all parties involved are consenting adults. However, it is very vulnerable to exploitation and ulterior motives, and so there needs to be a lot of care taken.

So the fear of exploitation and ulterior motives seems to be a common theme here. We've come up with a sort of tiered system of tribal membership to attempt to avoid some issues:

1. The lowest tier is toshav, would be equivalent to a "guest." This is someone who can come to any ritual not involving nudity. This covers anyone from a real guest to someone who is interested in joining but hasn't made the commitment or started learning yet.
2. The second tier is zar/zarah, which means something like "unfamiliar person" or, more literally, "a person who has turned from their path." This is someone who has formally decided to start learning our traditions with us, but they are still banned from any ritual involving nudity.
3. The third tier is ger/gerah, which essentially means "sojourner" or "convert." This is a person who is learned but not quite proven. They are expected to keep the traditions. They are allowed to nude rituals, but not to sex rituals.
4. And the fourth is orecha/or'chah, which means "path walker" (yes, that's why I chose my name). It's a full member. This is a person who can attend and participate in any ritual.

Do you think this system would help avoid those sort of problems?

Thanks for all of the responses thus far!

[Rowanwood]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

So the fear of exploitation and ulterior motives seems to be a common theme here. We've come up with a sort of tiered system of tribal membership to attempt to avoid some issues:

1. The lowest tier is toshav, would be equivalent to a "guest." This is someone who can come to any ritual not involving nudity. This covers anyone from a real guest to someone who is interested in joining but hasn't made the commitment or started learning yet.
2. The second tier is zar/zarah, which means something like "unfamiliar person" or, more literally, "a person who has turned from their path." This is someone who has formally decided to start learning our traditions with us, but they are still banned from any ritual involving nudity.
3. The third tier is ger/gerah, which essentially means "sojourner" or "convert." This is a person who is learned but not quite proven. They are expected to keep the traditions. They are allowed to nude rituals, but not to sex rituals.
4. And the fourth is orecha/or'chah, which means "path walker" (yes, that's why I chose my name). It's a full member. This is a person who can attend and participate in any ritual.

Do you think this system would help avoid those sort of problems?

Thanks for all of the responses thus far!

IMHO? Sort of.

Only if participation in said rituals was not required for advancement.

Though I'm a purely solitary pantheist witch at this point, I have been initiated and ordained within a coven. I was a priestess and a member of the council of this group. At the risk of sounding narcissistic, it was a well deserved position. But had I been required to be nude or participate in public sex ritual to get there? Or had been pressured to participate? I wouldn't have even joined in the first place.

I think if it becomes a practice that is accepted and allowed, vs. encouraged and/or required you could be fine. But the moment it crosses a line...and its a fine line...you will have trouble.

After being involved with a coven, and watching it go through its death throws due to less complicated matters than sex magic, I just think you really run the risk of losing your group entirely if it becomes a point of contention. We couldn't even always figure out who was going to bring the mead. If we had to figure out who was allowed to not wear pants, I think it would have been rough.

Here's a little anecdote: Someone from another coven that we were at one point associated with was a sex magic/nude ritual coven. They had all the rules, but it went bad. They were essentially using it in an attempt to impregnate a female member who was having problems getting pregnant -- except they weren't using magic and they weren't telling anyone involved at first. When it failed with their regular membership, they started trying to recruit men with the promises of free sex, hoping for sperm donors, including my husband who was horrified when he realized what they were trying to do. They managed to get "men" just barely legal to participate. It was not cool and it really messed up trust in the entire pagan community. It never really recovered.

[Ophidia]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

Only if participation in said rituals was not required for advancement.

That's a pretty good point. Participation should be voluntary and optional, and you do have to be careful that you don't develop cliques as a result of who gets nakies and who doesn't. With the people I've worked with, there was sort of a debriefing afterwards. Not a play-by-play retelling of the events, but more of a recap of why the ritual was celebrated with sex, and if it was to perform a working spell, did it work or did the participants think more needed to be done. That way no one felt like they were being left out of the loop.

I worked with some people who did sweatlodges, and for whatever reason, I and a few other people were always unable to attend. The 'Sweatlodge Camp' eventually sort of broke off & started doing their own things and the rest of us were left hanging & eventually drifted apart. It's natural for that to happen unless people make a concerted effort for it not to happen.

Here's a little anecdote: Someone from another coven that we were at one point associated with was a sex magic/nude ritual coven. They had all the rules, but it went bad. They were essentially using it in an attempt to impregnate a female member who was having problems getting pregnant -- except they weren't using magic and they weren't telling anyone involved at first. When it failed with their regular membership, they started trying to recruit men with the promises of free sex, hoping for sperm donors, including my husband who was horrified when he realized what they were trying to do. They managed to get "men" just barely legal to participate. It was not cool and it really messed up trust in the entire pagan community. It never really recovered.

That is one of the most f'ed up, reprehensible things I've ever heard. And it's kind of gross, too.

[Aeran]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

So the fear of exploitation and ulterior motives seems to be a common theme here. We've come up with a sort of tiered system of tribal membership to attempt to avoid some issues:

1. The lowest tier is toshav, would be equivalent to a "guest." This is someone who can come to any ritual not involving nudity. This covers anyone from a real guest to someone who is interested in joining but hasn't made the commitment or started learning yet.
2. The second tier is zar/zarah, which means something like "unfamiliar person" or, more literally, "a person who has turned from their path." This is someone who has formally decided to start learning our traditions with us, but they are still banned from any ritual involving nudity.
3. The third tier is ger/gerah, which essentially means "sojourner" or "convert." This is a person who is learned but not quite proven. They are expected to keep the traditions. They are allowed to nude rituals, but not to sex rituals.
4. And the fourth is orecha/or'chah, which means "path walker" (yes, that's why I chose my name). It's a full member. This is a person who can attend and participate in any ritual.

It would go a long way towards doing so, but any situation involving sex is going to be open to drama and exploitation and the like and no amount of rules if going to prevent that entirely, the best thing you can do is keep an atmosphere of honesty, openness and respect and set down some firm barriers from the outset.

[Orecha]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

I want to reiterate again from my first post that nudity/sex is never required and always optional.

But, here's an anecdote from my own experience as a nudist (so guess which camp I'm in):
We have a nudist group that meets one Thursday every month for dinner. Initially it was a clothing optional meeting, a safe space if you wanted to get naked but nudity was never required. Honestly, we never had anyone show up fully dressed because if you knew it was a naked event and didn't want to get naked yourself, then you just didn't go.

That all changed this Thanksgiving. This year people invited some people, who invited some people, who invited some people... Well, you get the point. There were people who didn't even know what they were coming to. Some people showed up to the front door and went "Oh... there are naked people here..." The point is, we had about a 70% nude event. The problem with that was there was a difference in vulnerability level. Because some people were clothed and others weren't, there was a higher anonymity factor among the clothed. It was similar to the anonymity of the internet -- people started behaving like, well, assholes. It resulted in serious problems, including varied levels of sexual harassment and molestation by clothed people against the naked (I was one of those attacked). After that event, it was decided that it was no longer clothing optional (not my decision), and that everyone had to be nude to come. Did this result in people leaving the group? Perhaps surprisingly, no. Now we have a healthier group with no more drama, and everyone is naked.

My point with all of this is that while nudity and sex are always optional, it should probably be the event that is optional. If you know there's nudity and you're not into that, then don't come. Same goes for sex. If you don't want to join the group because it has both, that's fine too. No one requires you to join or to participate. It's always optional, and, of course, there are events that are fully clothed at all times. I don't think that's unfair, but what do you guys think?

[Rowanwood]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

I want to reiterate again from my first post that nudity/sex is never required and always optional.

But, here's an anecdote from my own experience as a nudist (so guess which camp I'm in):
We have a nudist group that meets one Thursday every month for dinner. Initially it was a clothing optional meeting, a safe space if you wanted to get naked but nudity was never required. Honestly, we never had anyone show up fully dressed because if you knew it was a naked event and didn't want to get naked yourself, then you just didn't go.

That all changed this Thanksgiving. This year people invited some people, who invited some people, who invited some people... Well, you get the point. There were people who didn't even know what they were coming to. Some people showed up to the front door and went "Oh... there are naked people here..." The point is, we had about a 70% nude event. The problem with that was there was a difference in vulnerability level. Because some people were clothed and others weren't, there was a higher anonymity factor among the clothed. It was similar to the anonymity of the internet -- people started behaving like, well, assholes. It resulted in serious problems, including varied levels of sexual harassment and molestation by clothed people against the naked (I was one of those attacked). After that event, it was decided that it was no longer clothing optional (not my decision), and that everyone had to be nude to come. Did this result in people leaving the group? Perhaps surprisingly, no. Now we have a healthier group with no more drama, and everyone is naked.

My point with all of this is that while nudity and sex are always optional, it should probably be the event that is optional. If you know there's nudity and you're not into that, then don't come. Same goes for sex. If you don't want to join the group because it has both, that's fine too. No one requires you to join or to participate. It's always optional, and, of course, there are events that are fully clothed at all times. I don't think that's unfair, but what do you guys think?

That opens a giant can of worms, to me anyway.

This is a religious undertaking and to be honest I know I've never met anyone that practices your faith before. If the events are nude, and someone doesn't feel comfortable with that, suddenly their religious outlet is gone. Clearly you have dissension in your group over this issue. You will lose people if you press the issue.

It sounds however like its your group and a new faith, so if you feel the nudity is a necessary component, then you should add it. You don't need to justify it to me, though I'd be the type that would leave the group when that was an addition. Required or not, there will become an 'inner circle' dichotomy of those you get to be involved in all rituals and those who are left out -- unless you plan some other rituals that the not naked folks can only go to...and then you have two groups who occasionally interact at best, but not one cohesive group.

To be honest, I think this entire discussion is why a lot of Wiccan groups are so anti-naked-time. There's so many issues that can tear the fragile trust bonds in groups -- especially people who gravitate to alternate religions. We tend to be very strong personalities, so fighting is inevitable. You just need to decide if this is a battle you want to fight and if you prefer the exclusivity that this sort of practice both requires and creates.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

Have sex. It's fun.

Do it for religious purposes, and it's just one more way of fitting good, wet, sloppy fun into a culturally acceptable practice.

Do it for fun, don't get obsessively weird about it, make like the animals, and run with it. Stop paying attention to what other's do "for God," stop trying to make sense out of what others do for pleasure, and you'll be back on holy ground.

Why do people insist on making a big issue out of what comes naturally?

[Rowanwood]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

Have sex. It's fun.

Do it for religious purposes, and it's just one more way of fitting good, wet, sloppy fun into a culturally acceptable practice.

Do it for fun, don't get obsessively weird about it, make like the animals, and run with it. Stop paying attention to what other's do "for God," stop trying to make sense out of what others do for pleasure, and you'll be back on holy ground.

Why do people insist on making a big issue out of what comes naturally?

Because having an audience changes everything.


Especially fun sloppy sex. Even for non-human animals.

[Orecha]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

Required or not, there will become an 'inner circle' dichotomy of those you get to be involved in all rituals and those who are left out -- unless you plan some other rituals that the not naked folks can only go to...and then you have two groups who occasionally interact at best, but not one cohesive group.

This is one of the primary reasons that many of us are for making it an integral part of our practice. If we set it up as such up front, people will know what to expect when joining. Like I said earlier, the only dissent from the group was from the point of view of what others would think of the religion as a whole, not of individual members, so there's no risk of losing anyone.

All in all, this has been a very enlightening thread. It has allowed us to have a very focused discussion by bringing up topics we hadn't thought of. In the end, we've arrived at a consensus thanks to everyone's help: We will be keeping our traditions intact from the old days and maintaining nude and sex ritual. Thanks again everyone!

[Rowanwood]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

Glad to hear that even my dissenting opinion was helpful. I honestly hope it has the effect you desire -- and I actually think it will since you clearly have put forth the efforts and have reached the agreement in your group.

[Orecha]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

Glad to hear that even my dissenting opinion was helpful.

I actually was! Dissent is often more helpful than agreement so that you can see the arguments against a point and see if they are valid for you in your own life. It was of great help!

[Heka]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

I could see a potential for a group, that practiced big main normal rituals all together, but that also had smaller groups doing certain things for themselves, like a womens ritual for women business, or a elders group or young person group, a ritual with just members who were looking to acsend the ranks, or a nude/sex ritual. They wouldn't be seperate groups, they would just be people drawn together for different purposes within their whole group dynamic. It wouldn't be about exclusion. It would be a way to make individuals more comfortable. Like a woman who's had bad experience with men, choosing to have a healing ritual with only women, for a purpose that doesn't require the whole group.

Does that make sense?

[Bjorn]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

Got your attention?
Among most other pagans I know (from numerous traditions), there's a heavy aversion to sex ritual, sexual magic, and, to an extent, even nude ritual. Among the groups that I know personally, this resistance comes strongest from Wicca, which is understandable considering the stereotypes.

But I'm curious, in a case where the tradition legitimately calls for it, what do you guys think of sex ritual? Is there a divide between private and "public" (i.e. before your group, coven, etc.) ritual? Physically performed heiros gamos (divine marriage)? What about orgiastic ritual? Sex magic? Or what about the calmest of the group (which tends to get lumped in by outsiders), nude ritual? How does your tradition handle it?


I'm curious primarily because my tradition in it's ancient form included sex ritual (including orgiastic holidays). Since we're doing a reconstruction/revival, we've been questioning this as a modern ritual and whether it has any place in modern religion. We've got three main views in the group with no real consensus:

1. Among those who feel it should not be included, the primary argument is that it is archaic, taboo in the west, and strongly stigmatized in the larger pagan community. Most of this group is also against nude ritual to a greater or lesser extent.
2. Among those who argue for it to not be eliminated (though not necessarily "encouraged"), the argument is that if we eliminate things because they are "archaic" or "taboo in the west," that we would have no religion left after the editing process.
3. And among those who are for its complete inclusion, the argument is that it is a valid part of our tradition and cultural heritage, and that, in many cases, it is so central to certain rituals that we would completely neuter our religion with its complete removal.

Obviously, no matter what it decided, it would be an optional and voluntary ritual solely between (and/or witnessed by) consenting adults (as defined by state and national laws). So what do you guys think?

Thanks in advance for the help. This one has been giving me (literal) headaches for months.

I don't understand what the problem could possibly be. People engage in sexual pleasures for no reason at all sometimes, why not for magic? It makes no sense to me what the opposition would be. I personally cannot imagine myself being a part of such a ritual but I am a fan of clothing and exclusivity with whom I share my body nowadays, but that is simply personal preference. I don't see why people can have sex for fun but not for magic.

[Sondst]

Re: Sex Ritual -- the Controversy!

I have little knowledge of sex rituals and nude rituals. If it harm none then let it be, no?