why the net sucks for women

[Rowanwood]

Re: why the net sucks for women

I don't think posting a screen cap of a sexist email your band got and saying "hey guys, not cool" is an opinion that is "vehemently disagreed with in many quarters or act in a way which antagonizes a group or community" and I don't think it warrants the kind of reaction it got.

I'm sure it doesn't -- but is it "about" gender or about people being raging assholes?

[DanieMarie]

Re: why the net sucks for women

I'm sure it doesn't -- but is it "about" gender or about people being raging assholes?

Don't get me wrong...I think it's about people being raging assholes (especially since women seem to be willing to jump into the whole "just go kill yourself" thing with other women). I just don't see it happening as much with male artists and entertainers. Maybe because there are so many more of them, they just don't stick out as much, or maybe women aren't quite so quick to jump into sexual comments (though I'm sure it happens...I bet Justin Bieber and One Direction's mailboxes are full of 15-year-old girls throwing themselves at them).

[thalassa]

Re: why the net sucks for women

I'm sure it doesn't -- but is it "about" gender or about people being raging assholes?

Both. You have to be a raging asshat to threaten to rape someone for thinking that women should get an equal opportunity to serve in the military.

But the idea of perpetuating rape (or castrating a guy) is about sexual dominance. Which sex is seen as the predominantly dominant sex? Men. Why? Becaue its the historical and cultural status quo. So, until male=better is replacced with men=women as the socially accepted status quo, emasculation is going to be the "low blow" for insulting a man, and "fucking that bitch with a sandpaper comdom til she bleeds" is the equivelent for women.

Are there exceptions? Sure...but if you look at them for any lenght of time, they do more to provde the rule than not.

[Lilium of the Valley]

Re: why the net sucks for women

I was talking about hurting people too.
Creatively applied libel can ruin relationships and threaten/kill jobs. You can destroy even a confident man or woman with words provided that enough of the right people believe them. It just requires a little bit more effort and care than simply throwing insults because you need to be persuasive. Tanking an insult is easy. Tanking everyone around you shunning/turning on you is much harder.

Although again, the topic I was replying to was basic insults and threats. I was in no way talking about a vindictive idiot who is out to ruin your life. If that's the case of course if someone wants this, it's going to happen regardless of self confidence. But that wasn't the topic.

[Ophidia]

Re: why the net sucks for women

I am going to point out here that one can only get hurt by other people calling you negative things if there is something already weak about your self esteem. Someone with healthy self esteem who knows they are a good person can't be hurt/convinced otherwise by some moron saying they aren't.

This is itself is a form of victim-blaming. "The bully/stalker/creep isn't the problem. Your thin skin and oversensitivity is the problem".

Most online bullying isn't a once-in-awhile occurrence, and for the author of the article, as well as the other women she spoke of, the abuse happened in massive volume. It was also coupled with the helplessness of not knowing what to do about it, or who to turn to for help - and traditional avenues of civic protection were pretty much useless. And yes, harassment, abuse and all that are genderless acts, but women currently bear the brunt of it in certain avenues.

I have thick skin and a personality disorder that interferes with my emotional depth, so very little anyone says about me can hurt me. I was raised by a truck driver and a cocktail waittress, so I'm no stranger to foul language. I play WoW, have for quite a few years, and at least once a day someone on there will say something in general chat that kind of shocks me. I don't use voice-chat in game because the few times I did we got nothing accomplished because everyone was too busy critiquing my skills at giving head to pay attention to the pixelated monsters we were there to attack. If I had been a guy, or kept my mouth shut, very little would have even been said and we would have just gone and done our raids.

Some of the nastiest, most vulgar and obscene things I've heard in WoW and other MMOs I've played were said to me by boys whose voices hadn't cracked yet. It's not just grown men who believe that this kind of behavior is acceptable - it's kids, right in that 8 - 12 year old bracket, and they are admired by their peers for 'pwning some bitch online'. So these kids are learning that it's perfect acceptable, even expected, for them to treat any woman they meet online as an object for heightened vilification. They can get away with threatening her with physical actions they possibly cannot yet perform. This current generation handles relationships more and more through technological devices, and how they talk online or in texts is how they translate the real world. If it's ok to talk to a woman that way online, it's perfectly acceptable to do the same to her face. But instead of expecting them to curtail their behavior, we're the ones expected to grow thicker skins? When is that ever acceptable?

[Rowanwood]

Re: why the net sucks for women

Both. You have to be a raging asshat to threaten to rape someone for thinking that women should get an equal opportunity to serve in the military.

But the idea of perpetuating rape (or castrating a guy) is about sexual dominance. Which sex is seen as the predominantly dominant sex? Men. Why? Becaue its the historical and cultural status quo. So, until male=better is replacced with men=women as the socially accepted status quo, emasculation is going to be the "low blow" for insulting a man, and "fucking that bitch with a sandpaper comdom til she bleeds" is the equivelent for women.

Are there exceptions? Sure...but if you look at them for any lenght of time, they do more to provde the rule than not.

I think it's just about dominance, period. It's not even a human only trait. Half the animal world does the same thing, sometimes even using sex. Do you have any idea how much effort dairy farmers put into preventing heifers from mounting each other?

I think we give too much power to the attacker by pretending they are anything more than insecure animals.

I just believe we will never see anything change unless we focus on the reason why some people can't control their animal urges instead of the arbitrary thing they choose to attack.


In the end, I doubt the gender divide is anything like what common "wisdom" believes. I think often men HIDE when they are attacked. They retreat faster than women do. There's more social stigma toward men and abuse. And with no outlet to deal with the attack?

If we want to compare body counts; suicides, people hurt and killed that can be tracked back to abuse and bullying, it points towards males who actually need intervention.

But that is stupid, because it then ignores women, so I'm back to focusing on the troglodytes without social skills. We all know most bullying is about control and dominance and usually is due to lack of self esteem. Every time we give these bags more attention, we cry out "alas, my feelings have been damaged!" "I am scared!" THEY WIN.

I think we need to make a pact where we no longer give these people a stage for their antics.

[MoonRaven]

Re: why the net sucks for women

Warning the below post contain rather strong language. Proceed with that in mind.


First of all, thanks Perz you said a good deal of what I wanted to, and much better than I could.

And I am wondering if people here, particularly those who says that women should just "get a thicker skin and not take insults personally", have acutally read the article? Because I find it hard to see how anyone can think that threatening to rape and murder someone is equivalent of calling someone a faggot or dickless or bitch. (For the record anyone is welcome to call me bitch. I am the first to attests that I am in fact a real bitch, with all that intails :devil

I also fail to see how this is not a gender issue, since the insults towards males are mostly done by giving them female characteristics such as being dickless. And these insults are effective because not only the, what was it raging asshats?, but people by and large see women as less than men and by calling men by something that equivalates them with women (e.g. dickless) it makes them women and therefore less. Also when men are threatened with rape they are usually called bitches in the same sentence, again equivalating them with women.

So not a gender issue? Really?

[Rowanwood]

Re: why the net sucks for women

So not a gender issue? Really?

I really don't think it is. Society say a man must be "manly". Best way then to insult a man is to bring up his lack of manliness.

But what we consider 'gender' is just a group of socially chosen norms that we follow. There's nothing inherently feminine about pink. Those that want to shake up the rules, say, follow whatever you want. Men can wear skirts since women can wear pants. Whatever.

I mean, I guess it can be gender, if we include anyone who identifies as anything other than an alpha male as female including probably most of the males you know, since most men would not identify as cavemen.

Someone's lack of skill at using profanity and insults (dickless vs. something more descriptive) I don't think is the issue. And focusing on some feature of the victim is STILL blaming the victim. You are only a victim BECAUSE you are female, not because you got in the way of the perpetrators sense of entitlement to being right and in control.

Besides, does it solve anything to focus on the gender of the victim instead of trying to actually solve the problem? It's a red herring as far as I'm concerned.

[Denarius]

Re: why the net sucks for women

I also fail to see how this is not a gender issue, since the insults towards males are mostly done by giving them female characteristics such as being dickless. And these insults are effective because not only the, what was it raging asshats?, but people by and large see women as less than men and by calling men by something that equivalates them with women (e.g. dickless) it makes them women and therefore less. Also when men are threatened with rape they are usually called bitches in the same sentence, again equivalating them with women.

So not a gender issue? Really?

Hrrnngh. That's kind of ignoring an important context here, most people are not misogynists. They are just raised in a society bogged down with a lot of outdated and irrational garbage. Men need to be this, women need to be that... Gender roles.

Case in point: Women get insulted for being "manly," and it's just as stupid and arbitrary.

It's not a gender issue, it's a social issue. Gender plays a role, but is not the driving force here. It's a gendered issue, but that's not the same thing as a gender issue and it's certainly not exclusively a women's issue.

There's nothing inherently feminine about pink.

Best exemplified by the fact that it was considered a masculine color less than a century ago, as opposed to blue which was feminine.

[Medusa]

Re: why the net sucks for women

I don't really care if it's a gender issue to be honest. You can't even be sure the person you are harassing or the harasser is female or male.

[MoonRaven]

Re: why the net sucks for women

Strangely enough none of you have addressed my first question, so I'll ask again though I doubt I'll get an answer this time either. How is it that threatening rape and murder is met with *shrug* "grow a thicker skin, because we really can't be bothered."


Apparently I'm the only one who thinks threat of rape and murder is problematic.

[Medusa]

Re: why the net sucks for women

Strangely enough none of you have addressed my first question, so I'll ask again though I doubt I'll get an answer this time either. How is it that threatening rape and murder is met with *shrug* "grow a thicker skin, because we really can't be bothered."


Apparently I'm the only one who thinks threat of rape and murder is problematic.

Because 99% of the time all you have to do is click away from the url you are on that is threatening that. There is no way you are forced to be jailed to a url in space. And those of us who have had physical altercations in person know that a word of rape is really nothing compared to the actual act. And words are just words. And if they affect you THAT much? Get off the internet. This is harsh, but true. When you think about how many users are on the internet and how many actually end up doing physical harm to you in real life, it usually ends up being someone you know. Even rape is more prevalent among people you know then stranger danger. Regardless of what Criminal Minds on tv says.

If I were to get upset over every time someone said something to me on the internet, I would lose my damn mind. It's my laptop. I paid for it. Its my internet service I'm paying for in my house at my desk. I have ALL the power to turn to the next url. It really is that easy.

[MoonRaven]

Re: why the net sucks for women

Case in point: Women get insulted for being "manly," and it's just as stupid and arbitrary.

No, not case in point. Men may consider calling a woman manly an insult, many women consider it a point of pride when the are caled things like ball breakers and similar. I'll like you to find a man who finds being called 'womanly' to be a point of pride. That would be a man I would very much like to meet.

[Medusa]

Re: why the net sucks for women

No, not case in point. Men may consider calling a woman manly an insult, many women consider it a point of pride when the are caled things like ball breakers and similar. I'll like you to find a man who finds being called 'womanly' to be a point of pride. That would be a man I would very much like to meet.

To lighten the mood because this thread seems to be heading toward HuffyTown USA....ever talk to a drag queen? They'd love to be called that!

[Rowanwood]

Re: why the net sucks for women

Strangely enough none of you have addressed my first question, so I'll ask again though I doubt I'll get an answer this time either. How is it that threatening rape and murder is met with *shrug* "grow a thicker skin, because we really can't be bothered."


Apparently I'm the only one who thinks threat of rape and murder is problematic.

While I do agree with Medusa to a large extent, I DID NOT say there was no problem. It is wrong to threaten people with violence for disagreeing with you. I did get a death threat once because I voted Republican. (I've gotten way more crap for being conservative than I've ever gotten for being a woman.)

But does it matter what gender "I" am if someone threatens to rape and murder me? If its more than a threat and they actually do it am I less raped and dead if I have a penis?

But really, if someone is going to rape and murder you, they aren't going to warn you about it on the internet first. Let's call this what it is. It's verbal abuse. And its lousy, but its not the same as being stabbed.