an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

[Luna]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

Hi I am a meateater myself and I do think it is a persons own choice if he or her wanna be vegan, vegetarian, meat eater or anything else. Still when it comes to only eating vegtables I agree on the environmental level, haveing a bachlor in Animal Management and study a lot of evolution and the fact that humans in fact are as mention earlier omnivores I do not see any harm in eating meat. Yes some places are farm animals and so on treated poorly, but I buy my meat from a local farm which I know how the animals are raised, and not all animals are treated poorly.

Many animals in nature lives from feeding on other animals, which feeds on example gras. When it comes to the spiritual aspects I belive you should treat and respect whatever food you put into your body. I practice this principle by buying from people wich have farms I know, try to be as much self supllied with herbs, spices , vegetables, fruit as I can. My fiance hunts deer, ducks, hare and grouse and we catch our own fish Of course fully supplied are we not, but I do belive that if everyone does what they can it would be much better spiritually

[habbalah]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

It doesn't matter what other people do to me, either way, as far as diet. "And it harm none" is not relevant to my path, and it's impossible to eat something without taking a life. So, I eat meat.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

Merry meet ) o (
Im considering the phrase "an it harm none " And its correlation to food.
Due to a medical condition, I find it harder to chew and thus prefer soft foods. This means I am not the biggest fan of meat the only meats I eat are chicken and turkey. I do like fish (yes, I know fish counts as meat , but just as an explanation aid im doing them separately.
But I know that I don't have it in me to kill an animal. Not for food, not for anything, so why should I eat it?
Not to mention that our bodies ,(at least from my reading on the topic) don't seem to be designed to eat meat or dairy products. The exclusion of both these things from the diet is veganism.
Which imho at this moment , cause a the least harm to anything and everything. I still want to study it properly ,meditate on it and make sure I have all the information but I am considering becoming vegan.
Are you vegetarian/vegan? Or do you eat meat.? Opinions please
Merry part )o(

I realize this is an old thread and haven't read through all of it, so please excuse me if certain things have already been said. This is a common subject in Hinduism and Buddhism also. Ahimsa is a Sanskrit word that means non-violence, non-harm. That non-violence and non-harm extends to ourselves also. It is wrong to do ourselves harm by trying to follow a diet detrimental to our health in the name of a religion. I tried being vegetarian, but because vegetarianism is usually carb-heavy (I am insulin resistant with Metabolic Syndrome), a vegetarian diet does me no good. I hear the argument that humans weren't meant to eat meat, or that our digestive tracts are more like herbivores. Without going way off the rails, that's actually not true... humans are omnivores and opportunistic feeders, and can eat whatever the individual body can handle. We evolved that way, and it's why we evolved the way we did. One size does not fit all. Moreover, I've come to realize that all foodstuffs, whether plant or animal are gifts of the gods and the Earth, for which I am grateful; but that's just me. Your meditations will guide you.

[Amadi]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I'd prefer it if humanity ate less meat as a whole but stopping completely is out of the question.
I got into a discussion the other day with someone about if animals should run a natural course before they're slaughtered, meaning joints like Lamb etc. would become less common, I'm all for that; I don't particularly like the thought that I'm eating a child/young scrangly thing when an alternate dish like mutton is available, though I would eat whatever I could get my hands in if it was necessary.
But meh, the whole vege/vegan argument goes right over my head.

[Rae'ya]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I got into a discussion the other day with someone about if animals should run a natural course before they're slaughtered..

I'd just like to point out that this is flawed logic. From an animal medicine and husbandry point of view, there is no value to the animal to live longer vs shorter... especially when a longer life for food livestock generally means more prophylactic (and largely unnecessary) antibiotics, more anthelmintics and in many cases a longer time spent in intensively raised conditions (which, quite frankly, is a crap way to live). Which is not to say that animals slaughtered young are necessarily better off... just that they are not necessarily worse off and an older animal has not necessarily lived a happier life.

'A natural course' for an animal is a relatively short lifespan, usually with endoparasites and/or ectoparasites, ending with death that probably comes about by infection and almost certainly involves starvation or being eaten by something else. Nature is not pretty. Animals don't live some romanticized happy, pain free and long life when left to 'run a natural course'. The natural course sucks almost as much as the unnatural one.

Even when you raise your own organic, free range livestock, what you normally do is keep a few breeding animals who are your parent stock, let them breed and then decide which of the offspring you are going to keep and which you are going to slaughter. Because keeping them all to adulthood is actually false economy and may be detrimental to the herd/flock... because then you have to house them all, feed them all, keep them all healthy and maintain the correct male:female ratio while allowing for natural hierarchies. You have to consider how many animals you should keep on your land (based on animal wellbeing but also the wellbeing of the land), how you will feed them through winter or summer (depending on which part of the world you live in), how many males and females you have (because the wrong ratio will end up with fights, which means wounds and possible deaths) and how you will house/shelter them in inclement weather. Every animal that you keep to adulthood changes this balance and has the potential to upset herd or flock dynamics.

In the wild, Nature takes care of this balance with disease, starvation, dying of exposure and predation (and sometimes being killed by your own flockmates because you overstepped your bounds). The reason most small prey species have such high birthing rates and litter sizes is because a VERY small proportion make it to adulthood, and then a very small proportion of those make it past 2-3 years of age. Even animals like sheep, who only birth one or two lambs at a time... a single feral lamb is more likely to die from predation or being trampled than it is to live to adulthood. This idea that Nature is kinder, that animals in the wild are better off or that animals should be allowed to live a 'natural life' is completely flawed and naive.

[Medusa]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

Maybe they mean natural like not in a pen where they can't move. More like here you go nice happy fat pig. Run free for a while before I make bacon out of you. I'd be fine with that sort of natural course.

Also because I don't know..how long is a the life span of a cow left to their own natural devices in the wild? And wait...are there even wild cows?

[Sean R. R.]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I love meat. Yummy!

And I think life can only be supported by more life. So death and harm is an inevitable part of being alive. We are just part of a cycle of life and death.

[Rae'ya]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

Maybe they mean natural like not in a pen where they can't move. More like here you go nice happy fat pig. Run free for a while before I make bacon out of you. I'd be fine with that sort of natural course.

Also because I don't know..how long is a the life span of a cow left to their own natural devices in the wild? And wait...are there even wild cows?

I mentioned intensively raised livestock and how crap that is. It's absolutely deplorable that pigs and poultry are still subjected to that (and lets not even go near things like foie gras and how THOSE ducks live... fat =/= happy). But given that the post quoted was about animals running a natural course so that lamb is less common and we're not eating children... I went with the 'natural long happy life' myth rather than the very real 'intensive vs can-move' debate.

There are feral cows, and there are still a few native 'wild' populations (as opposed to feral populations, which are a whole other kettle of fish... 'wild' and 'feral' are two very different things). Though I honestly don't know their average life expectancy. Cattle aren't raised intensively, but they have some pretty drastic environmental impacts... even the nice happy free 'organic free range' ones. You should see the damage even a small herd can do to a large paddock... there's a reason most 'free range' cattle are not necessarily grass fed.

- - - Updated - - -

And I think life can only be supported by more life. So death and harm is an inevitable part of being alive. We are just part of a cycle of life and death.

This is pretty much how I figure it too. That and I don't apply 'life' to just animals. Plants are alive too... they have health, disease, physical needs and a sense that's close enough to 'pain' to cause them to actively avoid noxious stimuli. We kill living things every time we get out of bed. We do harm to living things every time we sit down to a meal... even the organic vegan 'cruelty free' ones.

[Medusa]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

Foie gras was banned here in California up until a few weeks ago. I wouldn't ever touch that stuff either.

[anunitu]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

Though I do love me some animals(Cute is as cute does)...I also love me some pork sausage. So I am always torn when chowing down on Eggs and sausage...But still I eat that stuff up.

[SilverShadow]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

Just to answer the question about how long cows live- Cows can live about 20 years or more on a farm. I'm not sure how they go in the wild, but then cows on farms are a far leap from how nature intended them to be. Chickens can live a number of years, but broilers only live a month or two from memory.


I've been thinking about the answers to this thread that go along the lines of "plants are alive too".

It's an interesting conundrum that all vegetarians and vegans face eventually, I figured I could at least give my perspective on the whole thing-

Plants aren't sentient beings the way that animals are. Plants react to stimuli the way perhaps our keyboards react to the weight of our hands on their keys (not my example, but I remember reading it and thought it was a clever way to explain the difference between reaction and feeling). That doesn't mean they feel pain. It could mean that they do. What science can tell us about animals right now though, is that they are sentient and feel pain as we do.

If, however, plants do feel pain the same way we do, by eating animals we're killing more plants than we would if we just ate plants. It's something like 2/3rds of the world's crops that go to feed animals that humans then consume. That's a lot of plant death, before you even get into the issue of land clearing and the impacts it has on whole ecosystems.

With all of that said, being a veg*n (short hand for vegetarian/vegan) doesn't ensure that no harm is done at all. I can only real speak to my own truth at this point, so other veg*ns may disagree, but I'm in this to do less harm. I started out as a vegetarian just so....so angry at what I'd seen, as I think most people are when they see animals mistreated. No one wants to hurt animals (save a very select few), so I do my utmost to ensure I don't hurt them. It's not absolute, but few things are. Plus, I feel a lot happier in myself with my decision.

[thalassa]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

'A natural course' for an animal is a relatively short lifespan, usually with endoparasites and/or ectoparasites, ending with death that probably comes about by infection and almost certainly involves starvation or being eaten by something else. Nature is not pretty. Animals don't live some romanticized happy, pain free and long life when left to 'run a natural course'. The natural course sucks almost as much as the unnatural one.

(snip)
In the wild, Nature takes care of this balance with disease, starvation, dying of exposure and predation (and sometimes being killed by your own flockmates because you overstepped your bounds). The reason most small prey species have such high birthing rates and litter sizes is because a VERY small proportion make it to adulthood, and then a very small proportion of those make it past 2-3 years of age. Even animals like sheep, who only birth one or two lambs at a time... a single feral lamb is more likely to die from predation or being trampled than it is to live to adulthood. This idea that Nature is kinder, that animals in the wild are better off or that animals should be allowed to live a 'natural life' is completely flawed and naive.

This.

Nature is red in tooth and claw.....and passing on DNA (from a genetic perspective, perhaps its the livestock that is more succesful ).

And I'll add to that in a general sense with the observation that animals in captivity generally have longer lives than their "in the wild" counterparts due to improved nutrition, medical care, and protection from predation.

The human habit of idolizing nature with one hand while exploiting it on the other is incredibly shortsighted.

I spent 8 years as a vegetarian, and I finally quit being one for health reasons. With that being said, its not about eating meat or not, but about how much you eat and where it comes from. I was never veggie because cows have sad big eyes (but I know that chick), I was a vegetarian because I have issues with industrial scale agricultural land usage (which also connects to watershed pollution and water usage issues)...which are mitigatable by responsible consumption.

And, ya know...what I said last year when I responded to this thread.


Also, just for fun (and because I can)...I added a poll.

[nbdy]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

Meat gluttony is a new thing; even just a hundred years ago meat was not the centerpiece of every meal. Most people need only 3-4 oz. of meat per day to satisfy nutritional requirements, if that is their only source of protein. Nutritionists say to imagine the size of a deck of cards. In some rare cases a person might require up to 8 oz. due to health issues -- that's two decks of cards. Historically, meat was something of a luxury, which is perhaps why people got crazy with it when government subsidized feed corn and intensive slaughter lots made meat at every meal a possibility. At my grandparents' farm much of the meat came from hunting and fishing, and whatever granddad brought home is what was eaten. Often just a squirrel or two went into stew for 10 people, and the stew was serve with rice and biscuits to fill you up. Sunday dinner was a big deal because that was often the only meal where meat was the centerpiece -- a chicken in every pot was a resonant promise for politicians because of this reality. Anyway, just trying to put the idea that "people always ate meat" into some historical perspective. Compared to our great grandparents, we are meat gluttons, and it isn't particularly healthy.

That said, I am mostly vegetarian and probably heading to mostly vegan. Just got the book The 30 Day Vegan Challenge, which I will read completely before doing anything. I think the important thing is to be well informed so that all nutritional needs are being met -- I am chiefly concerned with getting calcium, being a middle aged woman. Anyway, it has been a long, strange journey that has been only slightly influenced by moral or environmental concerns. When I became aware of the unhealthy conditions associated with factory meat I simply switched where I purchased meat to local farmers. I felt satisfied that I could observe the animals happily munching in open fields until kill time. Seriously, 15 years ago I could not have imagined giving up bacon. Health issues led me to look into nutrition and I entered a stage of what I called "meat minimalism." This meant that I cooked vegetarian every other day. There was a noticeable difference in my inflammation, so I gradually became "mostly vegetarian." The reason I say "mostly" is because I don't gad about advertising my life choices, so it is not unusual for some one to prepare a meal with pretty much nothing suitable for me to eat. I do not want to make anyone feel bad when they have obviously put themselves out on account of guests, so I don't say a thing. I don't eat much, but I want them to feel good about what they have done.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

Also, just for fun (and because I can)...I added a poll.

I had wondered...

To answer the poll, I went with other: If we want to use labels, then I am technically an ovo-pescetarian. Lactose intolerance prevents me from eating dairy (says the woman who just ate pizza for breakfast) ...and I'm not supposed to consume a whole lot of gluten. I'm not exactly intolerant, but it really messes with my insides and makes them raw (says the woman who just ate pizza for breakfast). I don't often call myself a pescetarian, but rather a vegetarian for ease of convenience, since while I am okay with eating fish, I very rarely do it. I prefer to eat like a rabbit.

[MaskedOne]

Re: an it harm none : meat eater, vegetarian, or vegan?

I had wondered...

To answer the poll, I went with other: If we want to use labels, then I am technically an ovo-pescetarian. Lactose intolerance prevents me from eating dairy (says the woman who just ate pizza for breakfast) ...and I'm not supposed to consume a whole lot of gluten. I'm not exactly intolerant, but it really messes with my insides and makes them raw (says the woman who just ate pizza for breakfast). I don't often call myself a pescetarian, but rather a vegetarian for ease of convenience, since while I am okay with eating fish, I very rarely do it. I prefer to eat like a rabbit.

Someone mentioned humanity's only export product of value...

What type of pizza?