Idea for a game

[Denarius]

Re: Idea for a game

So, despite the fact that there are hundreds of sects of Christianity, some who don't believe in god, miracles or prayer...well, close enough?

Hell yes, close enough. There are thousands of kinds of medical doctors, there is also the archetypal doctor. A simple construct from which complex characters are built. A character is, when well written, not just a stereotypical "doctor" or "Christian." They're a doctor that practices A or specializes in B, a Christian who believes in X, Y, and/or Z.

Even if they are simplified, that is not bad. Shallow, maybe. But it's not KKK stuff. You still haven't explained how this is any different than having characters be doctors, soldiers, scientists, teachers, engineers, or anything else.

No one cares that Commander Shepard can become the "soldier" class, or that Frank West is a photographer.

[Juniper]

Re: Idea for a game

Putting aside any misconceptions about the aforementioned parties, I -personally- think that given extensive actual research of all the involved religions/paths/faiths.... this could be an interesting concept for a game. Was this more directed toward tabletop, LARP, RPG or MMO's... Or all of the above?

Kind of a side-rant related to some content in this thread and not directed at any one person since the conception of this thread to page 5 (possibly precursor to red text, but hopefully not) : There is absolutely no need to get pissy when someone comes up with an idea like this, even if their initial ideas are based on misconceptions and stereotypes. That's what research and collaboration is for, to produce accurate information and representation. Stuff like this can take years or even decades to fine-tune. Getting upset at the first mention of this doesn't accomplish anything except possibly pigeon holding the idea until someone else comes up with it again.

Granted, I didn't bother reading every single post in this thread, because [reasons] so if this has already been said then, well done.

/end slightly-ranty derail.

[Alienist]

Re: Idea for a game

Hell yes, close enough. There are thousands of kinds of medical doctors, there is also the archetypal doctor. A simple construct from which complex characters are built. A character is, when well written, not just a stereotypical "doctor" or "Christian." They're a doctor that practices A or specializes in B, a Christian who believes in X, Y, and/or Z.

Even if they are simplified, that is not bad. Shallow, maybe. But it's not KKK stuff. You still haven't explained how this is any different than having characters be doctors, soldiers, scientists, teachers, engineers, or anything else.

No one cares that Commander Shepard can become the "soldier" class, or that Frank West is a photographer.

That's actually a very good point. It's about impossible to mention every single denomination of Christianity, Islam, ect. and it's best to keep it simple. Otherwise it becomes convoluted.

I actually wonder if it's best to take place in modern times, in medieval times, where religious intolerance was more common, or in a dystopian future, where people who both worship and others who don't worship live in a totalitarian future secretly run by an evil cult. And it takes a mixture of faith, magic, and technology to overcome that. Enemies can consist of secret police, robots and drones but also things of supernatural origin, like ghosts or creatures like golems ect.

[Shahaku]

Re: Idea for a game

How do you teach about other faiths? Where does religious tolerance come from when everyone is uniformed? I don't think using a game as a teaching aide is a bad idea. It would at least get a little attention. And when you're teaching about various faiths to increase tolerance you're going to have to generalize a little bit. No one can know everything.

Whoever created it would just have to be careful to be well informed and put only unbiased, well informed, information into the game.

[Alienist]

Re: Idea for a game

How do you teach about other faiths? Where does religious tolerance come from when everyone is uniformed? I don't think using a game as a teaching aide is a bad idea. It would at least get a little attention. And when you're teaching about various faiths to increase tolerance you're going to have to generalize a little bit. No one can know everything.

Whoever created it would just have to be careful to be well informed and put only unbiased, well informed, information into the game.

Exactly. Educating about beliefs would increase tolerance very much because in my earlier posts, I said intolerance is due to ignorance. If we all knew each other better, we'd all have a better understanding and perspective. Also experience is important. Someone can tell you "Don't trust those Muslims, they are all selfish" or "Those Zoroastrians are so high and might and arrogant and shouldn't be trusted" But when you actually talk to one, and understand their customs, and the people, you learn not all of them are like that. If fact, most of them aren't like that. Through extensive research and experience, one tolerates the other faith much more, instead of just listening to the news or rumors.

I figured a good idea to teach it is to have the party distrust each other first due to their past conflicts but also what they have heard about each other's faiths. And by fighting side by side, while learning of their faiths, they realize they weren't so bad to begin with.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Idea for a game

So have you played a video game before with a religious content? Can you honestly tell me that an adventure game could take time to accurately educate someone about a religion instead of creating more misconceptions while still being fun?

Because I just don't know how that's possible. If you visit the religion section of the local library, you will find hundreds of books, even in a small library, discussing Christianity alone. I don't see how in even a long game, like 60-70 hours you could do anything but slap on some stereotypes. And we are talking about a AAA game here, if you want a video game, to get to that length. Even on the low end, a game of this kind would cost $700K to make, up to the 20-30 million that is spent on major label games.

This is the only type of game where you could have the type of control needed to even contemplate the stereotypical understanding of only 1 or 2 faiths. And stereotypes not only don't educate, but they tend to misinform significantly. I consider myself pretty versed on religion and I just learned this year that atheist Christians even exist. How do you fit that in without hours of exposition by NPCs that would bore your audience to tears?

If you want to make a pen and paper RPG? Fine, but then you have no control over characterizations, so it's bound to be highly inflammatory and full of even more stereotypical characters. And even then, there's significant costs involved to even get it outside of your living room. Not to mention the inevitable protesting if it got published. Every religious bit of media ever released, even books like Harry Potter, have had tons on controversy surrounding them.

If this still sounds like a good idea, I think you should start saving money now.

Me? I'm practical. And this...is not a practical idea at all.

[Denarius]

Re: Idea for a game

How do you fit that in without hours of exposition by NPCs that would bore your audience to tears?

Same way most games do it, flavour text. Journals, codexes, audio logs... Besides, we are not talking about writing a doctoral thesis on religious diversity. I assume we are talking about specific characters with specific beliefs, or as you said leave the characterization in the hands of the players.

In niether case is it saying that "all (religion x practitioners) believes this." Pretty much every post Alienist made is about how this game is about overcoming stereotypes, about how it's important to learn more about people and their beliefs.

Again, no different than playing as a character that can be a "Soldier" or a "Doctor." Where was the protest by the US Navy when Bioware made Mass Effect? Where was the martial artist revolt when you could learn kung fu in Jade Empire? Where was the march when you could learn alchemy in world of warcraft? You are being ridiculous.

[Shahaku]

Re: Idea for a game

This is the only type of game where you could have the type of control needed to even contemplate the stereotypical understanding of only 1 or 2 faiths. And stereotypes not only don't educate, but they tend to misinform significantly. I consider myself pretty versed on religion and I just learned this year that atheist Christians even exist. How do you fit that in without hours of exposition by NPCs that would bore your audience to tears?

Might I ask (I'm honestly curious) why you feel it would be necessary for every aspect of every faith to be included? Just because you generalize some doesn't mean you're being stereotypical, or at least not unfairly so. Any book you read on a particular religion isn't going to be able to tell you every flavor of that belief system. The purpose of the game wouldn't be to inform people in depth on everything but simply to open their minds enough that maybe they would do some exploring on their own. Or at least wouldn't flinch if I walked up to them and said, "Oh hi, I'm pagan."

For instance, it isn't inaccurate to say that the majority of Wiccan's follow the Wiccan rede, and celebrate the sabbats, pay attention to the cycles of the moon. Do they all? I don't think so. But it wouldn't be unfair to depict a Wiccan character in a game who believes in this and is still a good person who is on your side. What is the problem with depicting the statistical majority instead of getting into all the nitty gritty that they could research later, after the game has peaked their interest?

And I think, if we were to have such a game, using one of those "What religion are you?" type quizzes at the beginning would be a good way of assigning the characters original "type" So that they were automatically assigned to the character most in line with their values... helps prevent them from doing stereotypical type actions. (As in actions that they believe would be the normal for a person of that belief, which if they were uninformed would be an issue.)

And financially? This is just a discussion. An idea. No one here is actually planning to do something like this at this time. We're just tossing around thoughts and opinions.

[feathered_regalia]

Re: Idea for a game

I'm an avid gamer, especially RPG's. I can see how some would find this offensive. At first glance it does appear to generalize, but you did state in your opening presentation that it was about overcoming stereotypes and you presented it as, "What if" not, "I'm going to make this right now and I think you should like it."

That being said, I think your heart's in the right place, but I think you're being too idealistic.

To think that presenting a story about religious tolerance using real religions as the backdrop can be picked up and enjoyed by anyone just isn't viable. Gamers don't play games to evolve their personal moral structure. And the ones that would agree with the inherent message in the game, are probably not the ones who need its lesson. A game that attempts to blatantly make a message will most likely come out as preachy or better suited for children if you kiddy up the language and mature content. When I play a game that has such a direct message, I feel like a kid being lectured, even if I agree with the message or even if the message doesn't apply to me. It makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't play games to feel uncomfortable, I play them to have fun. There are other ways to promote religious tolerance that people will take seriously. Using a game feels underhanded, like someone is trying to trick you into agreeing with their point of view by manipulating your emotions. I believe there is a place for that kind of promotion, but I don't believe a video game is the right avenue.

As for the creative aspects, I think as a game it's not my cup of tea. You'd really have to sell me on a time period for this to be believable. And either way I don't believe in making gross generalizations that result in stereotypes, such as Christians are who you turn to if you need a healer. Every religion has a way to promote healing. Just as Christians have been responsible for wielding swords and causing a great deal of pain and death, the same as many other religions. That healing aspect for that "class" would make the Christian feel like they were the "right path" because they could heal and no one else can. And any Christian that picked up that game, would instantly pick up on that fact. If it reaffirms only the facts that people know, then it does not change beliefs about those religions.

Wiccans, for example, keep stating repeatedly that they do not worship the devil. Well, that doesn't matter to anyone who's avid about the Bible. It states in there that magic comes from demons. So you can preach at a Christian until you're blue in the face that you don't worship the devil, their book says you do. Therefore, you do. And that's the end of it for them. If that Christian in that game learned to accept that Wiccan and say, "I guess that's not devil worship after all!", you'd probably end up just pissing off a lot of Christians because you just called their god a liar.

This game is one of those "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios that just could not end well if made all the way through.

It is good that you ask for opinions. But remember, the original script of any creative venture never survives the cutting room floor. Ask any editor or any director, producer, or game dev. The first concept is not the one that gets put out. The only thing the general public ever sees is the final product. Changes are always necessary to push product. If you want an idea that people are going to buy into, it has to have mass appeal, which first means that you have to understand the masses. This doesn't mean that these ideas were bad, it just means they wouldn't be popular. Popular doesn't always mean good. It just means it can generate revenue.

Reminds me of Blood and Chocolate. The book was actually good, even if it was a teen novel. Written surprisingly well, too.

[Alienist]

Re: Idea for a game

I'm an avid gamer, especially RPG's. I can see how some would find this offensive. At first glance it does appear to generalize, but you did state in your opening presentation that it was about overcoming stereotypes and you presented it as, "What if" not, "I'm going to make this right now and I think you should like it."

That being said, I think your heart's in the right place, but I think you're being too idealistic.

To think that presenting a story about religious tolerance using real religions as the backdrop can be picked up and enjoyed by anyone just isn't viable. Gamers don't play games to evolve their personal moral structure. And the ones that would agree with the inherent message in the game, are probably not the ones who need its lesson. A game that attempts to blatantly make a message will most likely come out as preachy or better suited for children if you kiddy up the language and mature content. When I play a game that has such a direct message, I feel like a kid being lectured, even if I agree with the message or even if the message doesn't apply to me. It makes me feel uncomfortable and I don't play games to feel uncomfortable, I play them to have fun. There are other ways to promote religious tolerance that people will take seriously. Using a game feels underhanded, like someone is trying to trick you into agreeing with their point of view by manipulating your emotions. I believe there is a place for that kind of promotion, but I don't believe a video game is the right avenue.

As for the creative aspects, I think as a game it's not my cup of tea. You'd really have to sell me on a time period for this to be believable. And either way I don't believe in making gross generalizations that result in stereotypes, such as Christians are who you turn to if you need a healer. Every religion has a way to promote healing. Just as Christians have been responsible for wielding swords and causing a great deal of pain and death, the same as many other religions. That healing aspect for that "class" would make the Christian feel like they were the "right path" because they could heal and no one else can. And any Christian that picked up that game, would instantly pick up on that fact. If it reaffirms only the facts that people know, then it does not change beliefs about those religions.

Wiccans, for example, keep stating repeatedly that they do not worship the devil. Well, that doesn't matter to anyone who's avid about the Bible. It states in there that magic comes from demons. So you can preach at a Christian until you're blue in the face that you don't worship the devil, their book says you do. Therefore, you do. And that's the end of it for them. If that Christian in that game learned to accept that Wiccan and say, "I guess that's not devil worship after all!", you'd probably end up just pissing off a lot of Christians because you just called their god a liar.

This game is one of those "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios that just could not end well if made all the way through.

It is good that you ask for opinions. But remember, the original script of any creative venture never survives the cutting room floor. Ask any editor or any director, producer, or game dev. The first concept is not the one that gets put out. The only thing the general public ever sees is the final product. Changes are always necessary to push product. If you want an idea that people are going to buy into, it has to have mass appeal, which first means that you have to understand the masses. This doesn't mean that these ideas were bad, it just means they wouldn't be popular. Popular doesn't always mean good. It just means it can generate revenue.

Reminds me of Blood and Chocolate. The book was actually good, even if it was a teen novel. Written surprisingly well, too.

I don't think I'd offend that many Christians seeing how there are Christians that are more tolerant than others and even date Wiccans. So obviously there are some that are more tolerant. A real Christian would be tolerant as their lord Jesus told them to be accepting of others, so by condemning others and being intolerant by practicing such things, they are also disobeying a commandment from their lord just by doing that. The thing is that most Christians, Jews, Buddhists, ect that might be intolerant of others is due to ignorance. That's where intolerance comes from. If they actually studied each others religions they would realize that they aren't so bad. I know just about all religions have their ways of healing but I figured Christians would be more into that, as Jesus was famous for healing others.

[Azvanna]

Re: Idea for a game

OP, Feathered Regalia gave you some excellent feedback if you're willing to take it on past the view of how you might offend others.

I think if you want some serious discussion on this regarding game development, this might be the wrong forum. I think if you really want to develop a game like this, you'd be better off asking on a gamers forum where you could find out what people liked/didn't like about RPGs. Can you think of a game yourself where you have been challenged so much that you changed your world view on a serious subject? If yes, why was that game so compelling?

I liked what Feathered Regalia said about the first concept of a story is rarely the end result. I think this would be very true for your game. As a concept, it's not all total fail. It has the potential to be creative, complex, and build community. The reason it could work is because RPGs aren't about winning, they are about character development and interaction within a game-world. You may be able to lead the story to a certain end, but bear in mind that many people who play won't pick up 'the moral of the story' so to speak. For many gamers, a character's abilities mean very little past the end result. e.g. 'this button is my big heal' instead of being immersed in what the spell actually means to the character.

If you really want to create this game, the no 1 thing you'll have to remember is that people DO NOT like being told what to do or what to believe. This is monstrously true of gamers of whom many are rebelling teenagers, and many others are uni students who can and are encouraged to think critically about information presented to them, then others who are adults and have already formed opinions. The best you can do is present information and a story line. Make it as biased towards one side as you like, but make sure that the player has the freedom to choose what to do with their own character at any moment and reward them for doing so. Make the world, but let the player decide how the character is developed.

When I first read your post, I totally agreed with the first person to reply who said it was full of stereotypes. Whether you think you made a stereotypical statement or not doesn't matter. If so many people who replied to this thread thinks you did, so will your consumers. So... how to overcome a stereotype in a game? Two ways: 1. Don't call it what it is. Make a prototype of a religion and call it something else. Make it very, very general. You might choose to get as general as 'Mystic' or 'Alchemist.' If you are making a prototype of a religion whom calls on a higher power rather than relying on their own personal power, you could call it an 'Intecessor.' 2. Leave room for creative development of the character's religion/abilities. You would need to make room enough to incorporate the many flavours of one religion. Have you ever played the game Rift before? It's got a pretty complex points system that allows the player to pick and choose different enhancers/abilities from a few different streams within the class system. You could even take this one step further and have your 'mystic' be trained by the 'alchemist' to learn a certain ability. At the end, you might even be able to give a character who has learned all the available spells/abilities of each class a title like 'Guru' or 'Enlightened One.'

If you don't want to make it so complex and you still want to make a game like this, consider making a children's game for Religious Ed or Study of Social Sciences classes. You can make the game a lot less complex and a lot less dark, while still being fun and educational. In fact, I'd start with this! IMO, education coupled with personal experiences from a young age are the best way to break down prejudices. If you start with this, you may be able to develop it further over time.

So, OP, it's not all total fail. If you really feel strongly, run with it. But you'll need to be so much better prepared to handle criticism than what you've displayed. I think you do cop a lot of flak from people on this forum for your ideas, but the way you respond doesn't help. Personally, I thought the first two responses were perhaps overly critical and maybe that set the tone for the rest of the thread. When people are being critical of your ideas, find out why and turn it around. For one, rather than arguing about a what a stereotype is, accept the fact that people felt like you were making them. Try to understand what about your idea brought that up and see if there's a way of overcoming it. Resist creating a win:lose situation and you can succeed. Refuse to be shut down and argumentative, but instead refine. Eventually you'll end up with a workable product.

[Historyforall]

Re: Idea for a game

Through fantasy we look at ourselves and society. The quests and groupings of the game are what would break down stereotypes. Gameplay designed to challenge preconceived notions about different religions.

Make it a college project and seek govt. grants as well as private and religious tolerance group funding which you can also closely work with for accuracy and now you have something.

Storylines are easy:

Year 2020 a new weapon used during the Worlds War resulted in a rip in the vale exposing all the Gods for all to see. Now you must chose who to follow and seek to create a balance between humans and gods.

Or

Year 2020 world changes; famine, war, climate have led to atheism being the worlds majority view, which has declared war on religion. It is up to you to defend your beliefs.

The why is easy and creating quests is easy. This could even be simplified for console games. If the whole point is to challenge misconceptions about other beliefs it is done in the story. This could be wildly popular and the more insulted a group feels the more popular the game becomes. Just make sure everyone is equally insulted.

There are many many many programmers and graphic artist looking for a good storyline and project to get in on the ground floor of.

[feathered_regalia]

Re: Idea for a game

I don't think I'd offend that many Christians seeing how there are Christians that are more tolerant than others and even date Wiccans. So obviously there are some that are more tolerant. A real Christian would be tolerant as their lord Jesus told them to be accepting of others, so by condemning others and being intolerant by practicing such things, they are also disobeying a commandment from their lord just by doing that. The thing is that most Christians, Jews, Buddhists, ect that might be intolerant of others is due to ignorance. That's where intolerance comes from. If they actually studied each others religions they would realize that they aren't so bad. I know just about all religions have their ways of healing but I figured Christians would be more into that, as Jesus was famous for healing others.

My personal life isn't leaving me as much time for these forums as I'd like, but here is my response in as timely a fashion as I was able to manage.
Like I said, you're being idealistic. You see only the happy joy joy aspects that should result from enlightenment, but the truth is that sort of tolerance is rarely seen in the world. It has to do as much with culture as it does with age. A young mind can be trained to maintain open positivity, an older mind usually has their mind made up and any effort to change that may be viewed as an attack on their beliefs. I've been exposed to narrow-minded Christian idealism more than once in my life. But it's not just Christians who can be narrow-minded. You need to remember that there are many divisions of Christianity. Although Christianity preaches love and acceptance, it also says those who don't follow their God are going to Hell, which now has just as many interpretations as the Christian religion itself. There are views within some facets of Christianity that would expressly forbid even picking up the game that you mentioned in the first place.

I think HistoryforAll made some good points about how it could be marketed and where the appeal could be. But you're asking a bunch of religious people how they would feel if their religion was overly simplified into a cartoon icon. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just think you need to be realistic and take Azvanna's advice about how to receive criticism. If you really want to learn how to take critical advice, take a college level art class. You don't know critical until every flaw of what you felt was a perfect portrait is pointed out to you in glaring detail. Try feeling like you need to change the way you've been doing things for years, things you were previously praised for doing, because you suddenly see how imperfect what you were doing really is. If that's the feeling you're trying to avoid, best thing to do is to not go forth seeking praise. It's a big big world we live in. There are literally billions of opinions on this planet. Not all of them are going to agree with you, some are going to be strongly against you. In the realm of entertainment in any of its forms, that's what you need to be prepared for. Then you need to learn, as a designer, what's going to win them over. The best way to do that is to listen to what they have to say and realize that these people are your potential buyers. You need them more than they need you.

[ThorsSon]

Re: Idea for a game

I am inclined to think that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

a) I think that you would need to be very careful in what abilities/specialties you gave each religion... or better yet, treat religion like a "race" in DnD and then have classes within said religions. Some religions might preclude some classes, for instance, you probably couldn't have a Taoist Necromancer... But the diversity within each religion is too broad to simplify very much. A Christian might be a paladin, fighter, mystic (wizard), priest, sorcerer, monk, bard, etc... a Heathen might be a priest, berserker, skald (bard), runesinger (sorcerer/wizard), fighter, barbarian, etc... Nearly every religion would have nearly every class... even some of the ones you might not expect... such as thief/rogue being available in ALL religions... magic users being available in ALL religions... fighter classes being available in ALL religions (Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, etc teach pacifism, but they all have history of members that are/were proficient fighters).

b) It might offend people. That isn't necessarily a problem. There exist highly successful games that are intentionally offensive (example: Cards Against Humanity). There exist highly successful games that are unintentionally offensive to some people (example: DnD). However, if you go with the intentionally offensive market, you have to go all-in. Embrace stereotypes, exaggerate them, and beat the shit out of them. If you don't mean to be intentionally offensive, you will have to be sure that it is clear that you are trying NOT to be offensive, given the subject matter... which will inevitably lead to you offending someone.

c) No matter which route you go... intentionally offensive, or accidentally offensive, you will have a LOT of research to do, for each and every religion (and you can't omit any... that will be offensive to someone).

It could be a good/fun game. But it will be hell to develop.

[Alienist]

Re: Idea for a game

I realized that maybe it's best not to talk of religious backgrounds but what they can do as far as magic.

One can be more into druidic or nature magic while the other would be into holy white magic or spiritual telekinetic powers. It'd probably be best to focus on the powers rather than the religion themselves.