To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

[Maria de Luna]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

It IS a violation of their freedoms. If it's a product that someone is trying to sell you or get you to take, you should not be forced to take it at all. Almost all the time, "force" doesn't work. IF this was a good vaccine, that was actually tested, they wouldn't need to force it on you. You yourself would take it instead of having some government try to inject you against your will.

No one is forced to be vaccinated. pharmaceutical companies have to undergo rigorous tests, and while they don't have to be nice or cheap about it they have to make ingriedients (allergens.) available to people getting vaccinated as well as lists of side effects. This does not stop morons from using falsified data to back illegitimate claims of effects of vaccinations.... So since tested vaccines with good testing and data backing them actually DON'T convince people to get them the whole argument is moot. While I do not agree that people should nessecarily be forced to vaccinate themselves or their children, I don't want them and their unvaccinated selves anywhere near me or those I love... PERIOD! They can become capable of carrying enough pathogen to overcome the protection granted by vaccinations. They overcome herd vaccination which protects people who are actually legitimately unable to get certain vaccinations, (some ingredients in certain ones can have negative side effects, and people with severely compromised immune systems often can have issues with some vaccines.) Why can people not have the freedom to be disease free? I want the freedom to keep myself and those I love safe from unnessecary harm. When do MY freedoms start? Why do I have to be exposed to disease because some moron read something claimed on the internet without verifying it, and has a little influence and convinces a few million morons to follow their crazy pants idea?

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I should also mention that i am leaving this topic alone now... I will not be back, the anti-vax movement makes me shake I get so mad.... I'm not into torturing children.....


also @ medusa, why a pan full of spiders and spider babies? why are they in a pan? now I can't get rid of this visual....

[thalassa]

IF this was a good vaccine, that was actually tested, they wouldn't need to force it on you. You yourself would take it instead of having some government try to inject you against your will.

Bull-ogna. People are stupid. They do stupid things that are against their self-interest, and indeed, their very survival, all of the time. People believe stupid things all the time, and then act upon them, even contrary to tons of evidence.

Its called cognitive dissonance.

Usually in the name of religion, or other non-evidence based dogmatic ideas that they concoct out of thin air.

Most 'people' that are getting vaccinated are usually kindergarten kids.
So who are these adults you know getting vaccinated?
No one can force you as an adult to get a shot? Unless you are going to another country. Then that country has a right to ask you to get a shot to come into their country. If you don't agree,you don't get it. But no one is forcing you.

Boot camp.

Its a requirement.

And, unless you have a medical reason for not having a particular vaccine (in which case you are likely getting kicked out for having a medical problem), you get everything (unless you bring a valid shot record, in which case you get what you are missing or what wears off, and they do a measles titre and shoot you again if you don't "pass")...if you refuse something, you get kicked out.

I've been immunized against all the regulars twice (as a child and as an adult in boot camp because my shot record was missing a signature), as well as Hep A and B, typhus (though that one is only good for 2 years), yellow fever (good for 10 years, as is whooping cough), anthrax, smallpox...I'm probably forgetting something.

Heck, as a civilian working for the Navy, I had to get boosters for all of those things (luckily they had my medical records in the computer still), and I get a flu shot yearly (and typhus every 2, tetanus every 10, etc) as a condition of my employment (I work in a medical setting).

But other than working in a medical setting (which often require full vaccination and yearly flu shots for your safety and your patients), adults (except when traveling) generally aren't.

I'll tell you this though--I don't want any unvaxed kid (unless they have a MEDICAL waiver) going to school with my children.

[Medusa]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

No one likes anecdotes they 'hear' about. So here's my actual story related to vaccines. When I was having my heart attack, they found I also had pneumonia. Both my lungs were filled with fluid. So what, right? They went in and drained one of my lungs. A big old 1 ltr type bottle was filled with brown fluid. Don't google lung drainage. It's not pretty.

So the doc said Hey M, let's give you a 5 year pneumonia vaccine! I was happy because if I were to get pneumonia with my Diabetes and my heart, it would probably result in the lung drainage again. Plus also at the time, my mother was alive. And I didn't want to visit her and get her sick. Because you know how diseases work. They spread when you think nothing's wrong. And so both my mother and I got the vaccines.

I have not had a serious issue since. And I've had the flu vaccine. Now not everyone needs those particular ones. So they give it to those with a compromised immune system. I'm quite happy to get a shot every year.


I wonder how many of those anti vaccine people are nice and healthy. And I wonder why. They probably had the shots when they were kids.

It's akin to never seeing a homeless person gluten intolerance. Luxury of health sometimes makes you a complete fucking idiot.

[Corvus]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

This reminds me, slightly off topic, but are hep vaccines ones that you normally get? I never keep track of what I'm vaccinated for but I know I should probably get vaccinated for it since I'm in a higher risk group for it.

[Azvanna]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

The only shot I'm worried about is the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine. Working in special ed and with disability support organisations, I met a handful of parents who made a strong connection between MMR and their child's ASD. The sister of a boy I used to support wrote a story called 'the Day I Lost my Brother' as the change was so rapid. I know the vast majority of children who have MMR vaccine are okay.. I had it myself. But for the very few I met whose lives were different, it's hard to make the justification on a personal scale. On a whole-populace scale, I can see why denying a link between MMR shot and the development of Autism would be worth it, but the personal cost on an individual level is too great. I hope there's an alternative to MMR vaccine when it comes time to vaccinate my boy.

[thalassa]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

On a whole-populace scale, I can see why denying a link between MMR shot and the development of Autism would be worth it, but the personal cost on an individual level is too great. I hope there's an alternative to MMR vaccine when it comes time to vaccinate my boy.

There is absolutely no link between the two, other than the power of suggestion and really shitty science done by a fraud. Children get the MMR vaccine around the same time that the first *real* signs of autism appear. That's really the only connection...correlation, not causation. When parents have a child with something like autism, they usually need something to blame (and I say this from firsthand experience as a parent with a kid that has severe ADHD)...its human nature, not a vaccine.

[Malflick]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

^Thalassa very much Ninja'd me. What she said...

[anunitu]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

There is reality that most people that refuse to get vaccines may not realize. I know there has been mention of "the right to refuse" but if you look to the past before vaccines there was the option of quarantining people that were infected with something. This was a normal practice of prevention before inoculations became common. Now it "Might" be that if the problem of non vaccinating became considered a public health hazard the medical and Government "Might" become a LOT less tolerant of outbreaks because of this,and implement things that might seem oppressive,BUT in the eyes of these governing bodies needed because of the needs of the many against the needs of the few. To insure the general public is protected from the chance of an epidemic level of infection.

I am not saying that this could or would happen,but when sickness becomes a problem and people panic we sometimes see drastic measures.

[Medusa]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

I realize part of the argument is that the government is 'forcing vaccines'. Now can we all get in the time travel machine and let's go back in time. There is a good reason the government oversees vaccines. Back in the day people were like dying and stuff. For reals, yo. And then the living people who burried their sick got pissed. Hey! Government! Why aren't you doing something about this epidemic?!!!

So the government then came up with the idea of cutting off said diseases at the pass. Let's vaccinate! So there won't be any more dead children! Yes! People stopped dying of said epidemics. Epidemics died off. Well except for those sad countries children still die from those epidemics.

Years and years later. In the land of my child is allergic to fun and the color blue....you bitch and complain. How dare the government infringe on my right to spread deadly diseases. No. I have no idea how wide spread polio was. I don't care. I just need to buy my organic milk and smoke my e cig.

Something like that.

[ChainLightning]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

I'm just going to skip 4 pages of rhetoric and answer the OP.



Vaccinate or die. End of story.




















Now, ask me why I didn't get a flu shot last fall.

[Shahaku]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

I'm just going to skip 4 pages of rhetoric and answer the OP.



Vaccinate or die. End of story



Now, ask me why I didn't get a flu shot last fall.

Why not? Flu shot bad?

[ChainLightning]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

Why not? Flu shot bad?

No. I simply didn't want the flu.







Every time I get one I get sicker than a dog for like a week. Every year I've skipped it, I get just a little sick for maybe three days. I "know" it's not the shot, it's being around more people, and thus more exposed. But the years I'm out getting the shot, those are the years I'm out and about a lot more. I just figure the reason then is the difference in strains.

When I don't go out and get a shot, I'm not going out much at all. For anything. No exposure... or very little, anyway.

[Azvanna]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

There is absolutely no link between the two, other than the power of suggestion and really shitty science done by a fraud. Children get the MMR vaccine around the same time that the first *real* signs of autism appear. That's really the only connection...correlation, not causation. When parents have a child with something like autism, they usually need something to blame (and I say this from firsthand experience as a parent with a kid that has severe ADHD)...its human nature, not a vaccine.

that's what I used to think, too.

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I'm not saying that people shouldn't get their children vaccinated. Out of all the children I've worked with and many who have Autism, it was only one or two cases where this topic came up. We believe our experiences and the things people tell us. In this case for me, the first-hand account conflicts with stringent medical research. It could be that the health professional whose son developed Autism in later childhood was looking for something to blame. Or it could be that her experience is such a tiny blip on the map, that it doesn't rate within the statistics of accumulated research. I'm not as quick to be so dismissive. Her claim may not be false, her son might be an example of a very rare occurrence.

How does this affect my choice? I would really like an alternative to the three injections at once. Not sure if that's possible, I'll have to look into it when the time comes.

[DanieMarie]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

I can't believe that this is even still a debate. I live in a bubble where pretty much everyone I know is pro-vaccine and my facebook wall is covered with articles and studies about how effective and important vaccines are, so I'm always shocked that people could be against it. The evidence is just too overwhelming. Even if you wanted to ignore the vast number of studies out there, there's simply anecdotal evidence to go by. Know anyone who died of polio recently? Small pox? I'm betting no. Until recently, almost no one got measles anymore and outbreaks are only occurring in areas with high proportions of people who aren't vaccinated. In the meantime, know anyone who has had difficulties due to vaccines? I'm guessing the answer is "no." Common sense, people.

I do hold a very controversial opinion on this, however...

I think that vaccination should not be a choice. It is a matter of public health, and public health and outbreak prevention trumps individual rights. Your choice on such matters ends when you endanger not only your own child, but other children. Vaccines can only be administered after a certain age and some people have compromised immune systems and can't get them at all (they, of course, can be exempt from mandatory vaccines). You should not be allowed to make a choice that puts those people at risk. Personal choice ends when those choices compromises the freedoms of others (right to life trumps other rights). Your religious freedom ends when your beliefs endanger others (right to life trumps other rights). We live in a social society, and that means that, while personal rights should be protected, there also have to be compromises in terms of the rights of the group. This is one of those cases.

There was a heartbreaking post on Facebook recently. A friend posted a pro-vaccination article about the measles outbreak in the Fraser Valley and a friend of hers commented on how she is nervous to leave the house with her baby. He is too young to be vaccinated and she feels nervous to go out with him and expose him to infected people. That should not be happening.

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It kind of depends on what you mean by "force."

There's no law saying you must get vaccinated, nobody points a gun at parents, or even fines them, so no physical force.

But the kid can't go to public schools, play on sports teams, and things like that, so there is coersive force used.

Personally, I'm OK with that. If a person chooses not to vaccinate, it makes sense to keep him/her away from places where diseases are spread - for their own good, as well as for the good of the public.

Yep, exactly. I'd be ok with fines as well, at least in my own culture (where vaccines do not cost you money).

As for paying for vaccines, I'm not sure on the status of that in the US, but if you have to pay, that's a failure of the health system and not vaccines. In Canada, my parents payed $0 to vaccinate me. Here in Germany, I will not have to pay money to vaccinate my children. That's what public health care is for.

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This reminds me, slightly off topic, but are hep vaccines ones that you normally get? I never keep track of what I'm vaccinated for but I know I should probably get vaccinated for it since I'm in a higher risk group for it.

I'm not sure about the states, but in Canada most (probably all) provinces have school programs for hep vaccines. Your parents sign a permission form (which everyone does) and you all get them at school. I didn't want mine because I was terrified of needles at the time, but my parents damn well made me do it (as they should have).

[Rae'ya]

Re: To vaccinate, or not to vaccinate: that is the question

There's really not much more for me to say here, as it's all been said.

But as a medical professional (albeit a veterinary one, not a human one) who knows a few things about the way that vaccines and the immune system works, I am absolutely pro-vaccination and I personally think that anyone who doesn't vaccinate themselves or their children is an idiot.

The trouble with allowing vaccinations to be optional is herd immunity. If the significant proportion of the population is not vaccinated, we have no reliable herd immunity. Which means that any choice not to vaccinate affects the entire community, not just your own family. Humans are packed into cities far too tightly to rely on a herd immunity that quite possibly does not actually exist in many of the communities that we assume it does.

And I'd just like to point out that quarantining a sick person AFTER symptoms develop is not a reliable way to stop the spread of many diseases. In many cases, the horse has already bolted and quarantining individuals is next to useless.

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Obviously, I also feel very strongly about people vaccinating their pets. So please do that. Every year (or every three years, if your vet uses a triennial C3 like we do). Dogs should not still be dying of parvo and distemper in first world communities. I understand that it's difficult for some people because you have to pay for animal vaccines, but really... this is an essential part of being a responsible pet owner. And it's not like it comes as a surprise every year... save 10c a day and you'll have enough money to pay for an annual vaccine. That's 70c a week. If you can't afford that, you shouldn't own a pet.