Emma Watson speaks at the UN

[thalassa]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

You just presented better than I ever could the 3rd and 4th wave feminist. It's never a failure on your part its always someone else's failure. Didn't understand? To bad not our fault it's your fault for reading to much into it or not understanding. Don't agree, again never our fault, has to be because you had a pre-existing disposition or resistance towards it. Male your wrong. Female your wrong and don't understand. Equality, nah not about that for that means equality to everyone and can't have that. History doesn't work, no problem change it to make it work to show how your being held down or were being held down and its all a mans fought.

What you write here is a perfect example of willful ignorance.



Or maybe I don't get it because (to quote my 8th grade algebra teacher) "I'm just a girl".

[anunitu]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

This puts into clear view what is wrong with human beings..If we can't get past different shades of skin,or differences in gender(both minor issues,we are all human) then it might seem we are ALL going to meet the same sticky end.....

[Rowanwood]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

I think the point could be that if a movement is so commonly misunderstood in its intent, maybe it is time to find a new way to express it.

I get the empowering intention behind sticking to a certain term in an attempt to take away its ability to be hurtful, like many Wiccans use "Witch" or some in the gay community have embraced the word "queer" however, the word 'feminism' has been so hijacked by it's own etymology that its a distraction to what the movement is trying to do and hence these arguments are just not going to go away and everyone is going to keep wasting time bitching about semantics instead of working together to better society.

If we called the pursuit of gender equality 'masculinism' can you imagine a lot of women getting on that bus? It's a word that intentionally excludes the feminine, just as feminism does to men and those who don't fit the gender binary.

If we look at it historically, it was originally about bringing women up, because society had by its laws created a position of significant inequality between the sexes. Those laws have been changed, modified and removed and by those changes, I think the notion of gender equality has now outgrown the term and turned it into just a bone of contention.

I will never call myself a feminist despite my strong beliefs that all people should be provided with the equal chance to succeed or fail. I won't because its not about women. It's about people; women, men, transsexuals, androgynes, and those who chose to identify without gender at all.

I think until this changes, there will always be an immediate emotional reaction to anything associated with this word.

When I tell people this opinion, I'm told exactly what Monsno is trying to explain, though probably with too much emotion and hyperbole (which is half my point right there). I am told I'm ignorant and wrong to not just tow the line, not just agree. I'm told I'm so stupid that I'm oppressed and I don't even know it and I need those smarter people to save me.

And then I feel the same way and its hard not to lash out at that culture of "if you don't agree with me, you are stupid" instead of intelligently discussing the possibility that maybe this needs to evolve as all things do.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

I'll get slammed for this but I can't let it pass.

You just presented better than I ever could the 3rd and 4th wave feminist. It's never a failure on your part its always someone else's failure. Didn't understand? To bad not our fault it's your fault for reading to much into it or not understanding. Don't agree, again never our fault, has to be because you had a pre-existing disposition or resistance towards it. Male your wrong. Female your wrong and don't understand. Equality, nah not about that for that means equality to everyone and can't have that. History doesn't work, no problem change it to make it work to show how your being held down or were being held down and its all a mans fought.

Even when Emma Watson points out that very fact in her speech about modern feminist and what the word actually means and how its created a us vs them mentality due to how its being pushed and presented.

Who said anything about "Don't agree, again never our fault, has to be because you had a pre-existing disposition or resistance towards it"? I never said that no one could have a problem with the feminist commentary on rape culture. I just said that in a lot of cases, people clearly don't understand it and that was definitely the case in that thread. And by "don't understand it", I mean that they don't actually read the things that feminists post about rape culture, because they cite examples about hating men or feminists seeing all men as "rapists", which is clearly not what those women are saying 99% of the time.

It's not "never a failure on my part." If I don't express something clearly, then that's a problem. But expressing myself clearly can only go so far. There are a whackload of people in the world who just to NOT want to listen. If someone says something along the lines of, "universities are too lenient with rapists, which is a reflection of how our culture handles rape" and someone chooses to read into that as "all men are rapists at heart", then that second person IS at fault for being willfully ignorant.

- - - Updated - - -

Also related to this thread: there is a backlash against Ms. Watson's speech, but it's not coming from the feminist community:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/29322764

http://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2014/sep/23/hackers-tried-silence-emma-watson-naked-photos-but-made-her-voice-louder?CMP=fb_gu

[loststarshine]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

Haters are always going to hate as phrase goes. Its horrible they are trying to shame her. I really want the poparatzi (sp?) to be banished they are scum.

This just goes to show how badly her message needs to be shared.

[Denarius]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

the word 'feminism' has been so hijacked by it's own etymology that its a distraction to what the movement is trying to do and hence these arguments are just not going to go away and everyone is going to keep wasting time bitching about semantics instead of working together to better society.

It's not just the word feminism, a lot of terms used by feminists are provocative and unhelpful ways of getting across simple and in a lot of cases otherwise uncontroversial ideas. Like saying patriarchy when you mean social inequality, or using misogyny to describe ignorance and/or prejudice.

[thalassa]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

I think the word is still important, and will continute to be important until being "fem"-anything isn't an insult when used towards someone that is (or identifies as) male. Or until stuff like this is a rarity and not business as ususal.





And this is what 3rd (4th) wave feminism usually looks like...its just not as exciting in the headlines and doesn't make as good air play for ratings.

In a history class last year, we were asked: do you think sexism exists any more?
And everyone around shook their heads, citing equal access to education, and votes, and work.
But there's still something, isn't there? Something more malicious and less easily defined.
Like once my friend told me she wishes she were a boy, because girls are "worth less". Or when my brothers tell me to cook for them, because "I'm a woman". Or when you ever express maybe not wanting to get married or have children, there's nothing but shock or derision from the adults around you.
It's bizarre. The more I think about it, the more I realise how deep-rooted these issues are.
And even as I write this, I'm reluctant to, because in some weird way, I don't want to be categorised as a feminist myself. I want to be seen as easy going by guys my own age. I certainly don't want to kick up a fuss.
But I'm sick of feeling as if wanting equality between genders is some massive ask, which designates you as angry and demanding. Because it shouldn't be - it should just be the norm


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/why-fe...#ixzz3EABRKtGj

[loststarshine]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

". Or when you ever express maybe not wanting to get married or have children, there's nothing but shock or derision from the adults around you.
It's bizarre. The more I think about it, the more I realise how deep-rooted these issues are.
And even as I write this, I'm reluctant to, because in some weird way, I don't want to be categorised as a feminist myself. I want to be seen as easy going by guys my own age. I certainly don't want to kick up a fuss.
But I'm sick of feeling as if wanting equality between genders is some massive ask, which designates you as angry and demanding. Because it shouldn't be - it should just be the norm


^^^ That is how I feel so much^^^^ I have always been opinionated or hard to handle handle. But guys do it all the time and thats the norm. Women getting pregnant at young ages they are viewed differently then the guys doing the same thing. Thats when. my grandma explained to me the double standard of being a women vs being a man. She did not advocate change just for me to be aware of it so I could work harder.

[volcaniclastic]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

I don't normally pipe up for discussions like this on the forum, but...

I just watched her speech. I'm incredibly proud and moved by the fact that a young woman is taking the cause to men, not just to women. I wish her campaign success.

It's the 21st century. Gender equality should be a right, not a privilege.

[Arella]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

I completely agree with what she had to say. She's right on with it.

Through checking the news, I found an article from CNN that states a 4chan user is threatening to post nude photos of her now. I hope she holds her head high and says, "Go for it. I've got nothing to be ashamed of; it's just my body."

Here's the article:

Emma Watson Faces Backlash After Gender Equality Speech

[Denarius]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

Apparently, the nude photo threat was a false flag operation by a marketing firm.

[Arella]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

Apparently, the nude photo threat was a false flag operation by a marketing firm.

Personally, I agree that 4chan should be shut down, but that is a shameful way to go about it.

[Denarius]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

Personally, I agree that 4chan should be shut down, but that is a shameful way to go about it.

The thing about 4chan though, is it's more of an idea or a movement than it is a website. If it goes down the only thing that will accomplish is creating a vacuum, that will be filled by something. I don't know about you, but I've always preferred the devil you know.

The problem is not any one website, it's a problem with people. Case in point: People from 4chan have been moving to 8chan because of a big ol' stink over censorship related to #gamergate.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

I think the point could be that if a movement is so commonly misunderstood in its intent, maybe it is time to find a new way to express it.

I get the empowering intention behind sticking to a certain term in an attempt to take away its ability to be hurtful, like many Wiccans use "Witch" or some in the gay community have embraced the word "queer" however, the word 'feminism' has been so hijacked by it's own etymology that its a distraction to what the movement is trying to do and hence these arguments are just not going to go away and everyone is going to keep wasting time bitching about semantics instead of working together to better society.

If we called the pursuit of gender equality 'masculinism' can you imagine a lot of women getting on that bus? It's a word that intentionally excludes the feminine, just as feminism does to men and those who don't fit the gender binary.

If we look at it historically, it was originally about bringing women up, because society had by its laws created a position of significant inequality between the sexes. Those laws have been changed, modified and removed and by those changes, I think the notion of gender equality has now outgrown the term and turned it into just a bone of contention.

I will never call myself a feminist despite my strong beliefs that all people should be provided with the equal chance to succeed or fail. I won't because its not about women. It's about people; women, men, transsexuals, androgynes, and those who chose to identify without gender at all.

I think until this changes, there will always be an immediate emotional reaction to anything associated with this word.

When I tell people this opinion, I'm told exactly what Monsno is trying to explain, though probably with too much emotion and hyperbole (which is half my point right there). I am told I'm ignorant and wrong to not just tow the line, not just agree. I'm told I'm so stupid that I'm oppressed and I don't even know it and I need those smarter people to save me.

And then I feel the same way and its hard not to lash out at that culture of "if you don't agree with me, you are stupid" instead of intelligently discussing the possibility that maybe this needs to evolve as all things do.

I haven't actually watched the video, and I don't generally like to get involved in discussions about feminism, pretty much because this ^^^ is my opinion. Almost word for word.

We have terms to describe a philosophy of gender (and beyond) equality. Actually we have two words... equality and egalitarian. I just don't understand why we are so caught up using a word that a) actually does not adequately describe what the current movement is trying to achieve; b) by it's very nature and definition excludes over half of the gender spectrum, which undermines it's accuracy and efficacy as a label as well as actively supporting the inaccuracy of binary gender classifications; and c) has so much negative historical connotations wrapped up in it that it actively perpetuates confusion and the sort of willful ignorance that Thalassa talks about.

I do believe gender equality does not exist at the moment. But I don't believe that it is just about men vs women. There are still some subtle but pervasive biases supporting traditional and stereotypical gender roles in today's Western society (which have negative impacts for men as well as women), but there is also an incredible amount of negative stereotyping and misunderstanding about the rest of the gender spectrum. I just don't think that feminism as a movement, even in it's modern incarnation, is the best way to go about supporting gender equality ideals.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Emma Watson speaks at the UN

I think the word is still important, and will continute to be important until being "fem"-anything isn't an insult when used towards someone that is (or identifies as) male. Or until stuff like this is a rarity and not business as ususal.

This is something terrible and something to deal with, certainly, but that's not because calling a man a 'girl' is an insult. Calling a woman manly is also an insult in the eyes of most people. Its not some deep seated cultural bias in the sense people take it, I think. Its an insult based on the assumption that someone wants to be a typical representation of their biological gender and is not. They only way for these insults to lose their bite is to stop being offended by it.

I've been told, as an insult, that I have "man hands" because my hands are larger than many other women and I don't have all pretty nails and stuff because I work with them in my garden, at home, etc. And I do have big, strong capable hands and why in the heck would that be insulting? I don't care what the 'name caller' intended. I embrace it and to hell with it.