migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

Saving everyone in the world is a lot like world peace. Nature behaves outside of human "kindness". Nature has no conscience. While I do believe in charity there are some limits on it. I practice unconditional love. What that means is I love enough to allow people to take responsibility for their actions. If a person has an addiction it is wrong to feed the addiction. If a person makes choices that continuously put them at risk they need to learn to make better choices. Nature is a very good teacher. Sometimes people have to struggle to learn the most important lessons. If they don't learn they spread their unlearned lessons to everyone around them.

When people leave one area due to reasons that were caused by the way they lived their life they also bring that way of life with them to the new area. They don't change their behavior in order to change the outcome. Instead they keep the behavior so the new place changes just like the place they left. People need to fight for their freedom or it has no value to them. Rather than leaving when the area they lived in goes to war they should fight for the kind of thing they want. That is the only way it will change.

[ThePaganMafia]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

The victim blaming is strong with you.

This refugees surely should take responsibility for their actions of being victims of a years long civil war. Your viewpoint is not only offensive but disgusting

[DanieMarie]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

The victim blaming is strong with you.

This refugees surely should take responsibility for their actions of being victims of a years long civil war. Your viewpoint is not only offensive but disgusting

Agreed.

I also think it's a huge misinterpretation of nature to assume that nature is always "each individual for itself." Although it's true that nature doesn't care much if one creature lives or dies, there are plenty of examples of species that work together in their communities. Humans are not a solitary species. We CAN learn a lot from nature, but I think the lessons that apply here are not the ones that DragonsFriend is thinking of.

[thalassa]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

Personally, I think part of being human is transcending what we are according to Nature and our own nature. If we can't do that individually, as a species, or at the various levels in between, then yeah, we might as well throw in the towel now. We've gotten to the place where we are now as a species despite the too many of us being the sort of self-entitled conscience-less jerks that think they are above the least of us...luckily those people seem to be in decline (unfortunately they are still the squeaky wheel). In the right circumstances, we are all reduced or elevated to the same thing...only someone with an intense superiority complex thinks otherwise (and in my experience, they tend to be the ones that are deeply insecure).

[B. de Corbin]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

If humans are kind, it is natural.

If humans are unkind, it is natural.

Take your pick - whatever humans do is natural for humans.

[anunitu]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

Hmm,I always am reminded of the line "Our better Angels" in discussions like this...Means kinda our side that actually is connected to the human expression of HUMANITY...as in "Where is your Humanity?"

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

If Nature isn't good enough and doesn't help the situation, then change it. Stop blaming nature when the real problem can be found much closer to home.

There are many reasons why people choose to uproot and take to the sea in open boats. Having the s*** bombed out of their country is often high on the list.

If someone claims to practice unconditional love but then does nothing - what use is that FFS? It's not love, it's walking by on the other side.

[DanieMarie]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

Yep. It's funny how people always choose the "nature" argument when referring to things they don't like (like granting refugee status or funding social systems), but then totally do so on computers connected to the Internet while sitting in homes built out of man-made materials and powered/heated by man-made systems. So natural.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

OK, you may not like what I say but there are reasons I say what I do.
If the early Americans had just moved away en-mass instead of fighting the British for their freedom it would have ended up just another colony controlled and taxed by Britain. There would be no United states.

From a religious stand point people need to take the responsibility for what happens in their lives. If you protect them from learning the lessons then you are harming them.

From a purely humanitarian view it seems the best idea is to help them by providing sanctuary. Feed and clothe those who are in need whether they are productive or not. That was done in the first American settlement and those who worked soon saw that they were doing everything for those who were not producing and still consuming the goods. The workers soon got sick and most died from exhaustion and illness. Half the settlement died the first winter. The local Indians showed them what and how to plant. and the leadership said those who don't work don't eat. Suddenly all those who could not work found the strength to work. when the workers were told they could own what they produced then the settlement became very successful.

Protecting people from the harshness of life does not arm them with the skills they need to live. The old adage of give a man a fish and he eats for a day but teach a man to fish and he will feed himself and others is a great lesson on the topic of caring for others the correct way.

In our national parks we have signs that tell us not to feed the animals. The reason they are there is so the animals do not learn to depend on being fed. The remain able to forage for themselves. Otherwise they learn that people are a source of food and when people don't freely give them food they attack for it.

You see this lesson taught throughout history. A nation steps in to correct problems in another country and then when the people are provided with the peace that has been established and the interfering country leaves the people go right back to what they had before. They didn't learn the lesson because they didn't have to work for it. When you have to work for change then that change has value. In the terms of the Pagan ways it is referred to as "equal energy exchange". When you give a gift to someone who can't see the value in it they discard the gift. They don't see the value of it.

If you really want to help people then assist them in learning the lessons they must learn. Sometimes that means allowing them to suffer until they see the value in the change. It is called "unconditional love". You love them enough to learn the lessons of life. We are free to assist in those lessons but we should never protect people from life's lessons.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

In many ways I have to agree with DragonsFriend regarding the whole issue of immigration. Using the US alone the same issues, legalities, ethics, etc were transported into Little Havanna, China Town, etc when those nationalities and ethnicities moved into the U.S. and kept their own cultural identities. All that was done is the turmoil and trouble was moved here, so the battles continue in both places. Right down to the same gang issues, same exploitation of the weak, same crimes, all of it.

[MaskedOne]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

OK, you may not like what I say but there are reasons I say what I do.
If the early Americans had just moved away en-mass instead of fighting the British for their freedom it would have ended up just another colony controlled and taxed by Britain. There would be no United states.

And if Prussian officers didn't teach people how to fight and the French Navy didn't step in to hold back most of Britain's strength then there still wouldn't be a US because the British Army would've crushed it. Are you advocating more direct and efficient military action?

[DragonsFriend]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

And if Prussian officers didn't teach people how to fight and the French Navy didn't step in to hold back most of Britain's strength then there still wouldn't be a US because the British Army would've crushed it. Are you advocating more direct and efficient military action?

Prussian officers and the French waited to see if the "Americans" had a chance of winning before they got involved. George Washington nearly lost the war on several occasions because he fought just like the English army was used to fighting. The militia was much more successful in their Guerrilla tactics and operations than the "great" general. Washington forgot that his men were hunters and farmers and not professional soldiers. He had absolute contempt for the men and tactics of the militia but if he had used them as they were, the British would have been gone a lot sooner and the continentals would have lost a lot fewer men in the war.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

I know the Prussian's also came over as merc's for the Brits and us. The French wouldn't even commit to aiding us until we proved we could defeat the British at the Battle of Saratoga if I recall correctly. Had we lost that battle the French never would have aided us.

I do agree with the tactics as well. In part I think a large number of our initial officers were British trained and still had some "Fear" of the British as well as their ethics in battle. In pitched battle I think we could go toe to toe for a bit with the British before numbers went in their favor. Yet in running battle or guerrilla tactics our militia's did a lot of damage.

[DanieMarie]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

OK, you may not like what I say but there are reasons I say what I do.
If the early Americans had just moved away en-mass instead of fighting the British for their freedom it would have ended up just another colony controlled and taxed by Britain. There would be no United states.

Because no other country ever separated from British rule through diplomatic process rather than rebellion? I guess everyone in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand must have just misplaced their passports then.

True, there would be no United States as we all know it. But it's not very likely it would still be a British colony.

Also, absolutely NO ONE is saying that the refugees shouldn't work. The entire German policy up to this point has been as much about filling gaps in the workforce and combatting an aging population and low birth rate as it has been about humanitarian aid. On top of that, as Thalassa posted much earlier in this thread, refugees actually tend to found businesses at a higher rate than people born in a country and pretty much pay for themselves in terms of tax dollars spent versus tax dollars earned. I don't know a single refugee (and I do know a few, both Bosnians in my hometown in Canada and various people here who fled various countries at various times) who isn't working, unless they are retired (and in that case, he -was- working before).

[B. de Corbin]

Re: migrants:What to do...Europe needs to decide.

And if Prussian officers didn't teach people how to fight and the French Navy didn't step in to hold back most of Britain's strength then there still wouldn't be a US because the British Army would've crushed it. Are you advocating more direct and efficient military action?

It didn't hurt that supply lines ran across an ocean in a time of sails, either. Missiles that could be fired from a long way away would have been very bad. Look at Britain during WWII, for instance.