Juvenile offenders & life sentances

[habbalah]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

I still say that the child should get a life sentence. If doesn't matter if the child doesn't understand it. Murder is still murder.

It isn't legally defined as murder, though, is my point. An adult that kills another adult by accident is (usually) tried for manslaughter. The charge of murder requires intent. A child who doesn't have the mental capacity to understand that they're doing someone to end a life should not, and cannot, under those terms, be tried for murder. Could you push for manslaughter? Perhaps, but what good would putting a very young child in prison do, when rehabilitation is far more likely to work with such a young mind?

[Bartmanhomer]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

Thank you Maskedone for the article. While I don't agree that a child at the age of three shouldn't be charged for a crime, I really think that the law should be change in my opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

Just because the child kills another person doesn't mean he should get special treatment. What if the child start killing multiple people. There's always an intent that the child will do. And that's called a mass murderer.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

I still say that the child should get a life sentence. If doesn't matter if the child doesn't understand it. Murder is still murder.

No, legally, philosophically, morally and just about every other context you care to name, it isn't. Or more accurately, murder may still be murder but murder is

1: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

and not all killing is considered murder. This distinction is rather important because if all killing does equal murder then justified homicide ceases to exist. IE, you kill someone to prevent them from murdering your friend, awesome but legally you've done murder. Welcome to an 8x10 cell.

and at this point, I should introduce you to Mens Rea aka criminal intent since it's a rather core legal philosophy and the reason you will never see a civilization worthy of the name prosecute a three year old. Outside of "Strict Liability" issues, criminal law requires both a physical and mental component when judging guilt. The why is as important as the what.

[habbalah]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

Just because the child kills another person doesn't mean he should get special treatment. What if the child start killing multiple people. There's always an intent that the child will do. And that's called a mass murderer.

Please cite the claim that a child has the intent to commit mass murder if they have killed one person, especially if it's by an accident or without the capacity to understand that a crime was even committed.

ETA: To add to MO's statement, a juvenile offender can never be sentenced to death, and life without parole can only be used on a juvenile offender with the charge of homicide.

[Bartmanhomer]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

What if the child kills another child? Does the victim parents wants justice? Absolutely. Does the murderer needs to be sentence to life? Yes I believe the child deserve to be sentence to life. Once a murderer, always a murderer.

[habbalah]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

What if the child kills another child? Does the victim parents wants justice? Absolutely. Does the murderer needs to be sentence to life? Yes I believe the child deserve to be sentence to life. Once a murderer, always a murderer.

That didn't answer my question, though, and you're avoiding the point that a child who accidentally kills another, or an adult, isn't committing murder. Murder requires the intent to take a life. Using a real gun for a pretend game isn't the same as willfully picking up a gun and shooting someone with the intent to kill them.

[Medusa]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

see re-worded version below

-Masked

[MaskedOne]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

There is no justice in punishing a three year old for an action that they aren't capable of understanding. There's only vengeance and being the judgemental bastard that I am, my feelings on a parent trying to demand vengeance against a three year old is that they can f*** off. I have neither need nor inclination to cater to them. Replace the three year old with a ten year old and we can possibly talk but at three...

Not a chance in hell.

Medusa, another direct crack on a poster's intelligence in this thread and I'll evict you from the thread.

[Medusa]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

Eh I'll re word it. i didn't even realize.

Bart, I don't think you have experience with toddlers to know what they are capable of. At the age of three they need help just going number two.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

works, the original post is now a "see version 2 further down".

[Briton]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

Well, I am opposed to life sentences and death sentences. The former is a drain on society which doesn't achieve anything different from exile, especially if there is no parole, they will just get hopeless and violent in prison, more so than if they were helped. The latter, there is far too high a risk of executing an innocent person, and that is never acceptable. Ever.

But then again I'm British and ergo a poncey pinko lefty.

[thalassa]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

Replace the three year old with a ten year old and we can possibly talk but at three...

Even at 10, the capacity to actually understand long-term consequences of actions is extremely limited.


ETA: But on the subject of toddlers and guns: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...sis-this-year/

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

Sociopaths are rarely created (as in, becoming a sociopath), but are largely genetic. Environment can bring out out the symptoms young, and can occasionally cause the condition, but it's much rarer (75% genetic vs 25% created). Regardless, if a child is fully aware and intentional, that's another story entirely. But then it becomes a matter of "is this child treatable? Can they be rehabilitated before they're an adult?".

Neither "sociopath" nor "psychopath" are actual clinical diagnosis. Both are clinically diagnosed as "anti-social personality disorder."

In popular usage (which is the only place the words have meaning) a sociopath is a non-violent psychopath, while a psychopath is a violent sociopath.

Both are the result of either genetic brain structure, or some form of brain trauma, and that brain trauma can be the result of extreme abuse in childhood during brain formation - even abuse that does not directly, physically damage the brain (which, by the way, means that you can't count on the parents/caregivers identifying traits).

If it is curable, the cure (with present technology) must be done before the brain stops developing.

Once the brain has stopped developing, these neurological impairments could very well be permanent because the developmental pathways cease once they are cued to finish at a certain age.

When not curable, it possible to mitigate the effects either via environment, or via training. Not all people with the identified brain abnormalities are easily identified as socio/psychopath - the distinction is usually made between successful and non-successful, the successful ones leading pretty normal lives, the non-successful ones are generally the ones who end up in treatment or prison.

At any rate - early diagnosis and treatment is best scenario - the later in life it is diagnosed, the more difficult it becomes to treat.

[thalassa]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

At any rate - early diagnosis and treatment is best scenario - the later in life it is diagnosed, the more difficult it becomes to treat.

I think we are finding though, that there is more neuroplasticity than we previously thought, even into adulthood (better sauce)...its just that we have to have the will to invest in helping these people, and most people don't even think of them as actual people, but as something less-than.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Juvenile offenders & life sentances

I think we are finding though, that there is more neuroplasticity than we previously thought, even into adulthood (better sauce)...its just that we have to have the will to invest in helping these people, and most people don't even think of them as actual people, but as something less-than.

LOL - yeah, that's why I had to write with so many qualifiers.

There is a similar situation with pedophiles. There may be options for treatment of preferential pedophiles, but finding them will require understanding the difference between a mental illness, and a person deserving mutilation for his/her choices.