Communism!

[Spiny Norman]

Re: Communism!

Don't get me started on Aberfan...

I've been there. Very strange atmosphere.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Communism!

I'm not saying that oppression hasn't happened, or that governments and corporations and other institutions don't continue practices that are unfair to individuals in certain communities, businesses, or groups (the continued treatment of the poor, Native Americans, African Americans, and other minorities in this country is appalling). I'm just saying that for all the people that complain about how they are being oppressed, I have yet to have an expansive list of all the things one would like to do right now and cannot do as a result of this oppression. There are absolutely injustices in our systems--the people that run them are flawed and biased human beings (as are the people that use them) and some systems are less well developed to prevent abuses than others.

And WE are ALL responsible for this failure.

But, if you can pray without being arrested, peacefully protest without being executed, write an editorial without being tortured, travel without molestation from government forces, go to school without fear of being kidnapped, then I don't think you are being oppressed. Treated unfairly, dealt with unjustly, discriminated against, etc...yes....but truly oppressed--most of us living under contemporary Western governments have no idea what actual oppression is.

I know you're not saying that Thal. But oppression rarely happens with a bang. The worst oppression uses salami tactics... slice by slice.

Yes, most people can pray without being arrested, but peaceful protesting is becoming a thing of the past. The Trade Union Bill over here is going to make that virtually impossible. The right to strike is being whittled away to something almost non-existent.

The UK government recently sent a drone to kill a British citizen abroad whom they said was 'planning' an attack on the UK. Was the attack imminent? Well, probably not, given as he was actually abroad. But this was a British citizen, and we really should not be doing this because it becomes the thin end of the wedge. Where does it stop?

Imagine, for example, if a Russian citizen, a known dissident say, went to the US, and Putin said he was 'planning something' and merrily sent a drone to kill him on US soil. There would be an outcry. And rightly so. But the parallels are there and we ignore them at our peril.

None of that might fit the description of 'oppression.' But, IMHO, I believe we are on the way there. Freedoms we once took for granted are easily whittled away in the name of national security, the war on terror and a host of other things that sound good but are just a cover for something more sinister.

Sorry if I have drifted from the original topic.

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I've been there. Very strange atmosphere.

Almost an entire generation was lost even though it was known to those in authority that the coal tip was unstable.

And afterwards, the government - a labour government, to its eternal shame - took money people gave for the victims in order to pay for stabilising the bloody tip and making it safe. It wasn't returned to the fund for decades, and when it was, it was without the interest.

[Kori Harpoon]

Re: Communism!

Sorry I haven't been on in awhile...stress. Look I know that the Communist economical ideology isn't perfect. Marx, Engals, and Lenin wrote it in a different time with different conditions and by extension a different mind frame. However how can anyone say it's ok that in the USO that (I may have said this before on this site I cannot remember) The Rich get richer while hungry babies cry. It has nothing to do with Democracy it's all about capital.

[anunitu]

Re: Communism!

If you are concerned with hungry babies and the poor,then there are paths to take that have nothing to do with communism. There are people that work to help the poor,and to make life more equal without the ideology of communism. Some very rich people do use their wealth to help,and to even the field. It seems you believe communism is the ONLY path,and seem bound and determined to "Convert" everyone to your way of seeing things...Life really is never as simple as we may wish it was,life is not fair ever,we may get lucky or even work hard and get ahead,but the odds are not always in our favor.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Communism!

Living in a former communist country, I have zero interest in communism. I'm all for democratic socialism, though.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Communism!

Hungry babies are not unique to capitalist societies. The Holodomor in Soviet Russia was a deliberately imposed famine in which people not only died,but became so desperate that they resorted to cannibalism.

Fight for fairness, rather than an ideology.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Communism!

Do any of us know real oppression? I mean, look at us.

Yep, this.

Seriously, I invite anyone from a developed western country to come here and take a tour of the Stasi prison. The tours are guided by former inmates of the prison, and they're very open to sharing their experiences, which usually involve being arrested for no given reason, being taken to an unknown location (the prison, but no one knew where it was at the time) and interned in solitary confinement for weeks or months at a time. Or, talk to someone who got kicked out of university or had their work opportunities seriously limited because they were "subversive" (liked the wrong music, wore the wrong clothes, etc).

Not everything was bad about the German Democratic Republic (East Germany). A lot of people tend to get it confused with Stalinist Russia, which it was not. The economy was centrally planned and essentially pretty close to the communist ideal, with most of the resources going back into economic investment in the country, infrastructure, or to the people. Women enjoyed a lot more equality than they do even now. There was a lot of money going into the arts, and artists could often do their work with a lot less worry regarding their money (provided they didn't have any subversive ideas). BUT there was also a lot of fear in the GDR, and the fear led to a lot of oppression. It wasn't exactly the kind of place where you could freely express your ideas, do exactly what you wanted to do with your life, or even leave. You had to stick to the script outlined by the communal society. If you didn't fit in, you didn't have a place, and you might even be punished for it.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Communism!

Yep, this.

Seriously, I invite anyone from a developed western country to come here and take a tour of the Stasi prison. The tours are guided by former inmates of the prison, and they're very open to sharing their experiences, which usually involve being arrested for no given reason, being taken to an unknown location (the prison, but no one knew where it was at the time) and interned in solitary confinement for weeks or months at a time. Or, talk to someone who got kicked out of university or had their work opportunities seriously limited because they were "subversive" (liked the wrong music, wore the wrong clothes, etc).

Not everything was bad about the German Democratic Republic (East Germany). A lot of people tend to get it confused with Stalinist Russia, which it was not. The economy was centrally planned and essentially pretty close to the communist ideal, with most of the resources going back into economic investment in the country, infrastructure, or to the people. Women enjoyed a lot more equality than they do even now. There was a lot of money going into the arts, and artists could often do their work with a lot less worry regarding their money (provided they didn't have any subversive ideas). BUT there was also a lot of fear in the GDR, and the fear led to a lot of oppression. It wasn't exactly the kind of place where you could freely express your ideas, do exactly what you wanted to do with your life, or even leave. You had to stick to the script outlined by the communal society. If you didn't fit in, you didn't have a place, and you might even be punished for it.

I always loved that film, The Lives of Others. Brilliant.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Communism!

I always loved that film, The Lives of Others. Brilliant.

It's a great movie! And it does such a good job of explaining the creepy spy state that existed here. Also, apparently the description of his internment at the Hohenschonhausen Prison was spot on.

[Medusa]

Re: Communism!

Sorry I haven't been on in awhile...stress. Look I know that the Communist economical ideology isn't perfect. Marx, Engals, and Lenin wrote it in a different time with different conditions and by extension a different mind frame. However how can anyone say it's ok that in the USO that (I may have said this before on this site I cannot remember) The Rich get richer while hungry babies cry. It has nothing to do with Democracy it's all about capital.

I'm still going to ask you and press you for an answer before I discuss anything else with you. What experiences/knowledge do you personally have with communism other than what you have read?

[Briton]

Re: Communism!

We're sitting at the internet in our free time discussing oppression, using search engines and criticizing our own governments.

We're really not really oppressed.

For the record, kindness and charity are not mutually exclusive from capitalism, which democratic socialism is pretty much a variant of. It's more akin to capitalism than socialism. You choose what you do with your disposable income, and you can give it to other people. You can't force other people to give. That's not even charity.

Oh yeah, disposable income. If you want to sing communism's praises, I suggest you go make it work and then show us why it's better. All you can do is say the theory is great. Lovely. I'll trust an imperfect system over a non-existent one.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Communism!

We're sitting at the internet in our free time discussing oppression, using search engines and criticizing our own governments.

We're really not really oppressed.

For the record, kindness and charity are not mutually exclusive from capitalism, which democratic socialism is pretty much a variant of. It's more akin to capitalism than socialism. You choose what you do with your disposable income, and you can give it to other people. You can't force other people to give. That's not even charity.

Oh yeah, disposable income. If you want to sing communism's praises, I suggest you go make it work and then show us why it's better. All you can do is say the theory is great. Lovely. I'll trust an imperfect system over a non-existent one.

Eh, it depends. Democratic socialism doesn't allow a market for all things. Even a lot of social democratic countries take state control over certain industries. For example, in my province in Canada, the province runs the electric system, the car insurance, the ferry transport, and a number of other things. You cannot choose your electric provider or your car insurance provider. There is only one, provided by the state. To be honest, I miss it. I pay multiple times more money for the "choice" of choosing my electric provider. In British Columbia, the goal of BC Hydro is to provide power to all residents at a low cost. Here, the companies have to actually make a profit. And we pay for that profit. Anyway....
But yeah, I'm getting off topic. A lot of left-wing democracies have a surprising number of state-run companies, some of which have a monopoly on entire industries. There's a lot in common with communism there. These are definitely hybrid systems.

[Briton]

Re: Communism!

It's not really communism because there is no State in communism, it's a form of anarchy. The State, so it is said, exists to ensure dominance.

I don't think there is an industry wholly monopolized by the State in the UK, and I believe the EU had banned restricting private enterprise from submitting a tender for a contract, and you can't force a private franchise to end just to buy it up. I don't know what EU members have enforced State monopolies. That would involve far more research than I think any of us are really bothered to undertake.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Communism!

Again, I'm going by communism as it's actually been practiced, not as it is purely in theory.

I didn't grow up in the EU, although I live here now. British Columbia, Canada definitely has some monopolies on things like electricity and car insurance. They got them because they provided them before anyone else got there and just kept up the service. Even though some people desperately want privatization, I think a lot of people look at what they pay for those services and what the Americans and Albertans pay and decide to keep it as it is. Anyway...

A lot of EU counties or regions do have monopolies on things like utilities and certain transport services. Like, if you're in a city or region that has a state-owned company providing the water, you're not going to be able to get privately provided water through your tap, even if you really want to.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Communism!

Actually, as an old fashioned socialist, I preferred it when the railways etc were nationalised. It was a better deal and the service was better across the board. Now some areas (like mine) are just a mess.

Also I don't think people should be sent to prison for not buying a television licence every year. Especially since the money ONLY goes to the BBC.