Communism!

[Briton]

Re: Communism!

It is their money after all.

Is it, really? It'll either have been handed down from people who exploited the poor in bygone eras when it was acceptable, or will largely be the money made from the employees' labour.

In fact since the rich are the ones that risk their capital in adventures why then should they not see a return on the investment?

You sound like employers are the only ones who are at risk. If they go bust, then the employees will be on the unemployment line. The difference is the limited company will protect the majority of the wealth and they can go on unscathed. Furthermore, ruining a company doesn't stop rich people getting new jobs with their friends, see: bankers.

[thalassa]

Re: Communism!

The idea of fairness is a utopian idea. It will never come to fruition. With that said why do you have a problem with the rich getting richer? It is their money after all. In fact since the rich are the ones that risk their capital in adventures why then should they not see a return on the investment?

Because we tried that, and it sucked. It was called the Gilded Age.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Communism!

If you have the imagination or inspiration to come up with something that the masses want and will come to need you have two choices; sell the idea to a company that can make it or go into business yourself and make it. Either way you can make money and provide jobs for many people. You will only get the most amount of money if you build and market your product yourself. Look at Steve Jobs' history.
As for the working man, I have been one and it is a lot less work that working for yourself. It doesn't pay as well but there are better benefits. You are contracted to do a certain amount of work for an agreed upon amount of money. On top of that wage you get paid vacations, holidays off with pay, and usually retirement and health coverage. The owner of the company supplies expensive equipment, a building heat and cooling, water and lights. He has to maintain the building to safety standards as well as maintain or replace tooling. He can honestly expect only a 3% return on his money each year. When the employees are enjoying their paid holidays he has no income. when you go on your paid vacation it lowers his income because you are getting paid while not producing income. Your employer is paying a portion of your health insurance but has to pay all of his own insurance.
I believe the only folks who think employers are taking advantage of the workers are those who have never been in business for themselves.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Communism!

I believe the only folks who think employers are taking advantage of the workers are those who have never been in business for themselves.

That may be your experience of course, but it's not mine. I've been in business for myself and I have always done my best to be ethical. I also live in an area where the 'employers' - coal masters, iron masters and their modern equivalents have taken shameless advantage of their employees. So yes, I stand by what I have said - the rich usually became rich on the backs of the poor.

[habbalah]

Re: Communism!

As for the working man, I have been one and it is a lot less work that working for yourself. It doesn't pay as well but there are better benefits. You are contracted to do a certain amount of work for an agreed upon amount of money. On top of that wage you get paid vacations, holidays off with pay, and usually retirement and health coverage. The owner of the company supplies expensive equipment, a building heat and cooling, water and lights. He has to maintain the building to safety standards as well as maintain or replace tooling. He can honestly expect only a 3% return on his money each year. When the employees are enjoying their paid holidays he has no income. when you go on your paid vacation it lowers his income because you are getting paid while not producing income. Your employer is paying a portion of your health insurance but has to pay all of his own insurance.

Excuse me if these seems presumptuous, but the way you say things makes it sound like this is the case for every work place. I've worked a lot of jobs that have no retirement, vacation time, holiday pay, or if they have benefits, not remotely affordable to their employees. More and more places these days are hiring employees part-time to avoid paying any benefits. Unemployment is still high enough, at least here in Michigan, that they can get away with it because so many people are desperate for work. Just for an example: a friend has been with her company for 11 years. She had been working full time, but because it wasn't in her hiring description, they cut her hours down to twelve a week.

[thalassa]

Re: Communism!

Excuse me if these seems presumptuous, but the way you say things makes it sound like this is the case for every work place. I've worked a lot of jobs that have no retirement, vacation time, holiday pay, or if they have benefits, not remotely affordable to their employees. More and more places these days are hiring employees part-time to avoid paying any benefits.

This has been a thing forever. When we first got out of the Navy, the hubby went to work for 31.5 hours on the books each week because 32 hours a week required benefits (he usually worked more than that--45-50 hours, working for the boss "personally" and not for the company). He got Christmas and Thanksgiving off, without pay, and worked every other holiday. The relative's company got several tax breaks (hiring a vet), that basically made him more money in the long run that the cost of the hubby's barely above minimum wage salary. There was no retirement, no vacation time, no holiday pay, no sick time, no health care or dental. The only people that got that were a handful of union guys, because he had no choice (and he got a tax break for hiring the union guys as opposed to non-union guys that he could have screwed more easily)--the office, warehouse, sales people, etc got 31.5 hours a week minimum wage (or less for the people on commission). And if labor laws were skirted that well, I'm sure we can all guess how well safety regulations were followed... But because he was a "small business owner" there were more exemptions than one could shake a stick at, no oversite when it came to safety (OSHA is seriously understaffed and underfunded), and no one that was going to come and bust him when they needed a job.

Meanwhile, his wife wore designer clothes, his kids went to the most expensive private school in the area (more than what my hubby made in a year for 1 kid's tuition), his cars were three figures, his house (in a region where a McMansion with a pool on a couple of acres of land could be had for $200k) was half a million, and he "worked" maybe 3 hours a day. Oh, and when he "expanded his business", the city exempted him from taxes for and arranged him an interest-free for 15 years loan, and the state suspended his taxes for a couple years too. This "expansion" was a move to a bigger building and hiring exactly 0 extra people full or part time. This has been pretty much par for the course for most small businesses I've encountered. The idea that businesses do the right thing (unless their feet are held to the fire) is sort of laughable. Around the time that the Hubby finally was able to find a slightly better job, he would have been "let go" anyway--the tax benefit from hiring a veteran was about to expire. Its like those preachers in impoverished churches that still manage to drive a Benz.

Heck, when I worked for the YMCA before I joined the Navy, I worked as an "exempted employee"--I was exempted from the part-time hour cap, worked 39.5 hours and didn't get any benefits (non-profits get special rules too). The biggest motivation for my quarterlife crisis where I joined the Navy was that I was going to lose my health insurance under my parents, even though I was still in college (and had 3 jobs), when I turned 23...unless you had a professional full-time job, you weren't getting health benefits. As much as people complain about places like Wal-mart, etc, at least they have a corporate policy that meets the minimum standards of federal regulations...with the "small businesses" (I'm talking the ones that really are not very small at all, unless you are comparing them to Wal-mart), there are so many exemptions (and they are less likely to be inspected for compliance due to the underfunding/understaffed problem of regulatory agencies, with the exception of health inspections for food establishments), those policies are often followed on a wink, wink, nudge, nudge basis...and when you have a complacent or corrupt local government (held hostage for fear of losing a business in their community), people get screwed twice over.

Are there people that own small (or big) businesses that follow labor laws, etc...that maybe even go above and beyond and provide their employees a living wage, benefits, etc...yeah. And guess what, they usually have lower turnover (reducing the human recourses cost) and higher productivity. But psychologiclly speaking, people would rather have money in hand now, than potential more money later. It's the same thing that drive commercial fishermen to chronically overfish from quota, even though they know they are crashing their fishery...

[Briton]

Re: Communism!

thalassa, that blows. We have stricter labour laws in the UK, it was recently ruled unlawful to offer zero hours contracts on the condition that they cannot look for other work. That was real exploitation. Unlike in your situation, small businesses really are put on the back foot in the UK. They're dropping in numbers, partly due to excessive business rates in the south, which feels like commercial cleansing, largely because famous chains are given tax breaks or cash to move in to small market towns (when they could afford a store they're anyway but aren't interested normally) whilst small businesses are crippled as the buildings they operate in (most commercial property is owned by developers who are more interested in the highest bidder than long run quality (ie if a coffee shop in the long run would lose then money but make quick money now, they'll still prefer it over a steady independent business with something special about it that draws people) so will push up prices).

As e have one of the longest law books in the world, the wealthy really address the only ones who can afford accountants to find them loopholes.

[Spiny Norman]

Re: Communism!

We have stricter labour laws in the UK, it was recently ruled unlawful to offer zero hours contracts on the condition that they cannot look for other work. That was real exploitation.

I think zero-hours contracts are basically exploitative anyway. I can see they suit some employers very nicely, but they leave employees in a horrible insecure position, never knowing what work they will get or whether they will earn enough to pay the bills. Meanwhile taxpayers are subsidising a low-wage culture with billions in tax-credits.

[Spiny Norman]

Re: Communism!

Unemployment is still high enough, at least here in Michigan, that they can get away with it because so many people are desperate for work. Just for an example: a friend has been with her company for 11 years. She had been working full time, but because it wasn't in her hiring description, they cut her hours down to twelve a week.

Yes, people get desperate and then pay and conditions deteriorate. I used to be a union steward and quite a lot of my colleagues were afraid to even join the union because they were worried about the management holding it against them.

[anunitu]

Re: Communism!

A look back at the fight for employee rights,and the history of the whole labor movement would show just how far we have come,and maybe how far we have to go on workers rights.

Do a search on strike breaking for an idea how hard it was in the beginning.

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Sauce here

[Kori Harpoon]

Re: Communism!

I'm still going to ask you and press you for an answer before I discuss anything else with you. What experiences/knowledge do you personally have with communism other than what you have read?

I have never left the USO. I want to visit other nations but my life issues prevent me. While I do not have personal experiences with Socialism I do with Capitalism. I was doing well in Collage until I couldn't afford it. When I was put into a foster care group home on the day I turned 16 they took a small amount of money I got a month when my grandmother died. I have other stories but not really the time or the energy to explain them, and to be fair I do not remember everything about them since a lot of them happened along time ago. I have seen the ugliness of Capitalism. Most people come to the USO for money but I have talked to Russians who say they could work just as hard and earn the same amount. No one comes to the USO for freedom much, mainly for money and they are disappointed to find out our streets are not paved with gold. I have both experience and lack of experience on all subjects. Guess what everyone else does too.

[anunitu]

Re: Communism!

I am not sure if you ever mentioned just how old you are? I wonder how long you have had to form your views?

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BTW,nowhere is paved with gold,you have to DIG for it.

[Kori Harpoon]

Re: Communism!

I am not sure if you ever mentioned just how old you are? I wonder how long you have had to form your views?

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BTW,nowhere is paved with gold,you have to DIG for it.

I am 31 years old. I was born May 2, 1984. I am still young.

[anunitu]

Re: Communism!

Yes you are young,but it seems you are so oppressed that you might seem to act like 60....

[Kori Harpoon]

Re: Communism!

Yes you are young,but it seems you are so oppressed that you might seem to act like 60....

Well people that know me, before I got the stable life I have now, even the staff of that Mental Hospital I stayed at for a little more than a month and at Bay House (A mix of a mental hospital and a half-way house) I spent like 3 months there said I am smart. I only say I'm kinda smart. I know that there is lots in this world I do not know. Some I will at some time lots I will not. What education I have is self education. The best kind.