Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

[Heka]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

Ahhh technicalities!

[Medusa]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

I'd steer clear of putting us in our own group. We'd probably burn the place down.

[MoonRaven]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

As a non-Heathen Northern religion person, it would be nice to see the 'Heathen' subforum be renamed to something less recon-centered. But having said that, I think the community here is not recon-dominated and thus this doesn't actually really matter much. I've been on pagan forums before where non-recons were run out of their own board/subforum because the recons said 'This area is for Heathens (aka recons), not for you'. I also don't really like 'Teutonic' for the same reason as others have mentioned. It feels like swapping one restrictive name for another. So IF we were going to bother changing it, perhaps changing it to 'Northern Paths' or something like that would be more appropriate. The ironic reality is that most of the 'Heathens' here at PF actually aren't Heathen at all. lol

Bold emphasis mine. I like this suggestion a lot. Mostly because it would invite other non-Heathen traditions, such a people with roots in Finnish lore and Slavic/Russian tradition,s in. Heathens sometimes forget how much we actually have in common with those of our neighbours. One could argue, but there isn't really any of those people here. Well, maybe it's because they can't find a section to fit into and having a more generalised 'Northern Paths' section would fix this without throwing out the rest of us. I for one would like to see them here.
So I will give my strong support to this.

There are other subforums that could be added to the Religions category, but I don't think that there is enough demand for them. Most places have a Shamanism and/or Animism board, but I don't think there are enough of us here to warrant one at PF...

Personally I'd like to see such a section. As for not being many it may be a case of not having a place on the board where you feel you belong, (see my argument above). Or maybe those of us that are here, such as me, we just don't talk about it becuase we, okay I, aren't really sure where to put it. Though I could of course just post under 'Ceremonies and Practises'... Right, you know what? Never mind.

[Yorin]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

How about people who don't like Debates just don't read the Debate threads?

I'm sorry, but really? It's actually not that difficult to skip over a post or to read posts on the Activity Feed based on the thread title rather than the content. And the debate rules are the forum rules... and those are pretty detailed and explicit on their own. Why do we need another set of rules specially posted up just for debates? And why do we need to check a little Terms and Conditions box when what we would be agreeing to are the FORUM RULES, which we all agreed to when we joined the forum?

Because even though those were outlined rather well, people still don't listen to them. I realize I can't speak for all, but I'm pretty sure no one wants to go into a thread that should've been a debate topic say something against the supposed norm get jumped and torn to shreds for even stating their opinion. It happens. Frequently. Putting up a small bullet-point reminder of "Hey, remember not to be a jerk here or there will be consequences-this is your warning" on threads that do get moved to a debate, or are clearly maked as such might help curb people getting beyond snarky and just downright vicious. People don't always listen or catch mods jumping on and going "Hey, cut this crap out now and remember to be nice" because they might still be typing, or they're just idiots and don't want to listen.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

Because even though those were outlined rather well, people still don't listen to them. I realize I can't speak for all, but I'm pretty sure no one wants to go into a thread that should've been a debate topic say something against the supposed norm get jumped and torn to shreds for even stating their opinion. It happens. Frequently. Putting up a small bullet-point reminder of "Hey, remember not to be a jerk here or there will be consequences-this is your warning" on threads that do get moved to a debate, or are clearly maked as such might help curb people getting beyond snarky and just downright vicious. People don't always listen or catch mods jumping on and going "Hey, cut this crap out now and remember to be nice" because they might still be typing, or they're just idiots and don't want to listen.

I'm not sure a check box is going to prevent people from being assholes.

[Yorin]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

I'm not sure a check box is going to prevent people from being assholes.

No, but it does remind them that it wont be tolerated

[ChainLightning]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

As far as tolerated behavior, that should be monitored and controlled by moderators, really.

The notion of common sense just doesn't apply. Ticking a checkbox, to enter an area, and skipping whatever reminder rhetoric is attached, is another angle of that common sense being avoided, almost vehemontly. What we're after is a way to circumvent the lack of common sense (and common decency) when debates are suddenly taken personally - where every dissenting opinion is viewed as a personal attack.

I, personally, love heated debates. I enjoy working with logic, semantics, and whatnot, to undermine social norms, for instance. There's no sources, no dictionaries, no extraneous links and quotes, just language. Language being carefully applied to describe an alternative truth. Those are fun! But people still reveal thin skin even in such frivolous, good-natured arguments. It's like it takes a special breed of person to take on arguments/debates as they're meant to be - discussions of opposing viewpoints, with supporting statements, and see where that puzzle takes us.

And there's a whole bunch of people that avoid debates at all costs, around here. So we have this idea of separation that we'd like to resolve. People ill-equipped for skilled dissection of their ideas...

[Rick]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

Here's my only problem with 'debate' forums: there are people who want to feel persecuted (martyred, even) for their POVs. If you've been around online forums for any length of time, you've run into those people. They won't allow discussion, they just want to whine how bad this or that is, or how they feel about this or that, and otherwise bring nothing to the table but a generally uninformed opinion. In other words, they come to argue, not debate, and before a subject is even brought up you can predict how they'll over-react to it. These are the people that call those with any other viewpoint Old Blue Meanies then hit the report button because an Old Blue Meanie said something snarky back. It's a no-win.

[Medusa]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

Here's my only problem with 'debate' forums: there are people who want to feel persecuted (martyred, even) for their POVs. If you've been around online forums for any length of time, you've run into those people. They won't allow discussion, they just want to whine how bad this or that is, or how they feel about this or that, and otherwise bring nothing to the table but a generally uninformed opinion. In other words, they come to argue, not debate, and before a subject is even brought up you can predict how they'll over-react to it. These are the people that call those with any other viewpoint Old Blue Meanies then hit the report button because an Old Blue Meanie said something snarky back. It's a no-win.

Oh no. Its a win. I call those people mice.
And we know what happens around here when us cats get hungry.

[Rick]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

Exactly, Medusa. Someone chews 'em up and spits 'em out, then the thread is closed. But nothing is gained by those who actually wish to discuss an issue.

[Medusa]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

Exactly, Medusa. Someone chews 'em up and spits 'em out, then the thread is closed. But nothing is gained by those who actually wish to discuss an issue.

Sometimes the mods will either delete said trolly behavior or just unlock it later when all is calm. And by the time we cats are chewing is because the thread is close to dead anyways. We are just picking the dying ones is all. No harm/no foul. I leave healthy mice alone. I swear!

[Rick]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

Culling the herd is healthy...

[Rae'ya]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

Because even though those were outlined rather well, people still don't listen to them. I realize I can't speak for all, but I'm pretty sure no one wants to go into a thread that should've been a debate topic say something against the supposed norm get jumped and torn to shreds for even stating their opinion. It happens. Frequently. Putting up a small bullet-point reminder of "Hey, remember not to be a jerk here or there will be consequences-this is your warning" on threads that do get moved to a debate, or are clearly maked as such might help curb people getting beyond snarky and just downright vicious. People don't always listen or catch mods jumping on and going "Hey, cut this crap out now and remember to be nice" because they might still be typing, or they're just idiots and don't want to listen.

Do you really think that having a check box is actually going to change whether people pay attention to the rules or not? The problem is that we're talking about people here. And sometimes people are jerks to each other.

And call me old school, but the way I see it, when people don't follow the rules or listen to the mod notes in threads is when consequences should be pulled out. You break the rules, you get in trouble. You be a jerk, you get in trouble. You do it enough times, you get banned.

I don't know what happens here for bad behaviour, but I've been on forums where there are no consequences and discussions are basically ruled by trolls (which obviously doesn't work)... I've been on forums where there are clear protocols for mods to follow regarding bad behaviour, with a certain number of warnings and then temporary bannings etc (which works quite well).... and I've been on forums where the official consequences only kick in after the unofficial 'chew them up and spit them out' squad has managed to bait the snarky jerk into saying something super nasty so that the mods would finally pay attention (because no one was doing anything about the snarky asshole before that).

And to be honest, if you think that HERE is nasty and vicious and snarky, you've not been to the forums I've been to. The debates here are very civil compared to some I've seen. We actually do have debates and in depth discussions here. Other places have shit fights. I think the mods do a very good job of putting warnings into threads when things start to get snarky. If someone ignores that, then that's on their head.

The notion of common sense just doesn't apply. Ticking a checkbox, to enter an area, and skipping whatever reminder rhetoric is attached, is another angle of that common sense being avoided, almost vehemontly. What we're after is a way to circumvent the lack of common sense (and common decency) when debates are suddenly taken personally - where every dissenting opinion is viewed as a personal attack.

I was talking about common sense for people who want to avoid seeing debates, rather than common sense IN the debate... because I agree that's often the first thing that gets tossed out the window lol.

Honestly, I don't think that there IS a way to circumvent the lack of common decency once people get snarky and offended. I'm a cynic... I have no faith in common decency, period.

The only way that I've ever seen that worked to keep all snarkiness away was a combination of warnings given out by mods followed by temporary then permanent bans, coupled with a team of respected senior members (non mods) who would recognise the obnoxious behaviour before it started breaking the rules and either diffuse it, chew them up and spit them out, as Medusa put it, or bait them so that they broke the rules and got banned. That place had almost NO snarky debate, but did manage to keep up the discussion while said respected senior members where still there. The problem with that system, aside from the obvious elitism, was that once the respected senior members moved on, most in depth discussion stopped, because people were afraid that no one would come and stick up for them if they got snarked at.

I, personally, love heated debates. I enjoy working with logic, semantics, and whatnot, to undermine social norms, for instance. There's no sources, no dictionaries, no extraneous links and quotes, just language. Language being carefully applied to describe an alternative truth. Those are fun! But people still reveal thin skin even in such frivolous, good-natured arguments. It's like it takes a special breed of person to take on arguments/debates as they're meant to be - discussions of opposing viewpoints, with supporting statements, and see where that puzzle takes us.

And there's a whole bunch of people that avoid debates at all costs, around here. So we have this idea of separation that we'd like to resolve. People ill-equipped for skilled dissection of their ideas...

I wonder if part of that separation problem is about expectations. I've been here for... six months now, and I have not seen one single direct flame. I've not seen a single troll make it past their first thread. Now I have seen some obnoxious pushing of personal opinion as fact and some 'I know more than you do so ner look how superior I am'. And I've seen some harsh newbie-crushing, which is disappointing. But in the grand scheme of internet forums, this place is a Tibetan Monastery. I find it incredibly ironic that we are even having this conversation, because discussions here are managed very well and don't ever get beyond a bit of snark before they're shut down. I'm just not really sure how much further you can tame it down, because it's already a well managed, troll free place.

[Medusa]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

Do you really think that having a check box is actually going to change whether people pay attention to the rules or not? The problem is that we're talking about people here. And sometimes people are jerks to each other.

And call me old school, but the way I see it, when people don't follow the rules or listen to the mod notes in threads is when consequences should be pulled out. You break the rules, you get in trouble. You be a jerk, you get in trouble. You do it enough times, you get banned.

I don't know what happens here for bad behaviour, but I've been on forums where there are no consequences and discussions are basically ruled by trolls (which obviously doesn't work)... I've been on forums where there are clear protocols for mods to follow regarding bad behaviour, with a certain number of warnings and then temporary bannings etc (which works quite well).... and I've been on forums where the official consequences only kick in after the unofficial 'chew them up and spit them out' squad has managed to bait the snarky jerk into saying something super nasty so that the mods would finally pay attention (because no one was doing anything about the snarky asshole before that).

And to be honest, if you think that HERE is nasty and vicious and snarky, you've not been to the forums I've been to. The debates here are very civil compared to some I've seen. We actually do have debates and in depth discussions here. Other places have shit fights. I think the mods do a very good job of putting warnings into threads when things start to get snarky. If someone ignores that, then that's on their head.



I was talking about common sense for people who want to avoid seeing debates, rather than common sense IN the debate... because I agree that's often the first thing that gets tossed out the window lol.

Honestly, I don't think that there IS a way to circumvent the lack of common decency once people get snarky and offended. I'm a cynic... I have no faith in common decency, period.

The only way that I've ever seen that worked to keep all snarkiness away was a combination of warnings given out by mods followed by temporary then permanent bans, coupled with a team of respected senior members (non mods) who would recognise the obnoxious behaviour before it started breaking the rules and either diffuse it, chew them up and spit them out, as Medusa put it, or bait them so that they broke the rules and got banned. That place had almost NO snarky debate, but did manage to keep up the discussion while said respected senior members where still there. The problem with that system, aside from the obvious elitism, was that once the respected senior members moved on, most in depth discussion stopped, because people were afraid that no one would come and stick up for them if they got snarked at.



I wonder if part of that separation problem is about expectations. I've been here for... six months now, and I have not seen one single direct flame. I've not seen a single troll make it past their first thread. Now I have seen some obnoxious pushing of personal opinion as fact and some 'I know more than you do so ner look how superior I am'. And I've seen some harsh newbie-crushing, which is disappointing. But in the grand scheme of internet forums, this place is a Tibetan Monastery. I find it incredibly ironic that we are even having this conversation, because discussions here are managed very well and don't ever get beyond a bit of snark before they're shut down. I'm just not really sure how much further you can tame it down, because it's already a well managed, troll free place.

Trolls now a days. Good for nothing adhd bastards. I remember the good ol days when a troll would be here ramping themselves up slowly into crazy town. And I do mean like massive bomb curse word conspiracy theory full out loose their shit kind of way. I loved those guys. Now trolls try to get in and do it in a half hour period. Shooting their lil troll seeds before I even know what's going on!

Entice me. Buy me din din first. Then go all Timothy McVey.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Taking suggestions for sub-forum reorganization

Trolls now a days. Good for nothing adhd bastards. I remember the good ol days when a troll would be here ramping themselves up slowly into crazy town. And I do mean like massive bomb curse word conspiracy theory full out loose their shit kind of way. I loved those guys. Now trolls try to get in and do it in a half hour period. Shooting their lil troll seeds before I even know what's going on!

Entice me. Buy me din din first. Then go all Timothy McVey.

My favourites are ones who think they're all smart and sneaky... the ones that come in and start off a legit discussion and then start trying to prove how much better they are than everyone else. Then you can prove to them how very wrong they are. The bomb droppers are boring... rush in, drop their bomb and then rush out again giggling like a schoolgirl waiting for everyone to start screaming and crying. That's no fun.

Alas, I had to quit troll-baiting when I packed up and moved forums. I still get itchy fingers sometimes, but I'm trying very, very hard.