Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

[ChainLightning]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Maybe Im looking for an excuse or just winding myself up to go on a crusade against its influence.

Considering the exchange with Shadow, I'd say the former. People misbehaving, as it were, isn't feminism and isn't Paganism, neo or otherwise. It's just people behaving badly.

Which is, as I tap-danced around, just the nature of people. Put them in a group and poo is going to hit the fan, in one respect or another, sooner or later.

[Eryx_UK]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

This is stemming from my experiences over the last few months. Ive lived in the midlands where there was loads of folk traditions that neopagans would enjoy but no neopagan moots, when I moved back up towards the east coast I started getting back into moots. I hadnt noticed before so maybe Im more sensitive to it at the mo but a lot of man bashing goes on. Men dont want to be fathers, men arent commiitted to relationships, the patriarchy oppresses women all that stuff goes on while Im sitting there looking on. Im no vegitable I fight my corner but I get "oh youre the exception then"... is it that strong a tendancy in neopaganism or is it just the company Im in here?

Looking back we have had theories of neolithic goddess cults and matrifocal societies that vanished because christianity destroyed paganism and put a patriarchy in place. While theories like that arent central to neopaganism that goddess monotheism comes up regularly, maybe in new age more then neopaganism... but to me, with the wieght of it baring down on me as I type I feel like its all pervasive. Im questioning whether in becoming a neopagan I positioned myself to be second class because of my gender?

When I first starting looking into paganism back in the mid-ninties, I was seriously put off my the inherant feminism that I found. I knew a couple feminists at the time who really did see men as beneath them, and I have to admit that I hate that attitude. I don't see men as better than women, and I equally, don't see women as better than men. Now thankfully these days I have yet to encounter anything like that from the female pagans that I have met.

I can't speak for your experiences but I don't think that men are second class in pagansim. Things are not nessecarily perfect but attitudes and equality are better than I think many give paganism credit for. You have to take people on an individual basis regardless of faith, gender, ethnicity or orientation.

[Maythe]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

I can't be fucked to get properly involved in this discussion* so I'm committing some drive by linking:

Man Haterz - http://www.shakesville.com/2009/08/man-haterz.html
Study shows feminists less hostile to men than non-feminists - http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2009/07/non-feminist_mo
Feminism 101 - http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2009/07/non-feminist_mo- - - Updated - - -

Oh and a site about gender politics from a male perspective http://www.xyonline.net/.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

This is stemming from my experiences over the last few months. Ive lived in the midlands where there was loads of folk traditions that neopagans would enjoy but no neopagan moots, when I moved back up towards the east coast I started getting back into moots. I hadnt noticed before so maybe Im more sensitive to it at the mo but a lot of man bashing goes on. Men dont want to be fathers, men arent commiitted to relationships, the patriarchy oppresses women all that stuff goes on while Im sitting there looking on. Im no vegitable I fight my corner but I get "oh youre the exception then"... is it that strong a tendancy in neopaganism or is it just the company Im in here?

Dude I know it's an old thread and a closed can of worms but I just cant help but throw my 2 shiny little pennies in this general direction! Where I am, the local pagan women largely outnumber the local pagan men. err at least the ones who go to the meetups, and belong to local covens. Seems like you were in a similar situation, the only dude among a huge pile of ladies. sometimes people getting together like to air beef, err laundry, err crap that happened to them, and then everybody likes to sympathise in a way that shows a similar problem and agree with the "well theyre all evil anyway" sort of opinion. In a room with all ladies its kinda ok to have an anti guy diatribe, they probably don't mean to be disrespectful to you, this is just already the way the groups discussions go. I imagine it is pretty frustrating, and I'm sorry it happened to you, especially in a new group. I don't think it is nessecarily a reflection of paganism as a whole, but groupd dominated by certain type of people can often feel "those people" centric. Does that make sense or did I free all the poor wormies for nothing?

[JamesByrne]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Does that make sense or did I free all the poor wormies for nothing?

Yep it makes Loads of sense Maria thanks

[Privateer]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

In a room with all ladies its kinda ok to have an anti guy diatribe, they probably don't mean to be disrespectful to you, this is just already the way the groups discussions go.

Except that it's not okay at all...what if it were an anti-black diatribe?

[AL!CE]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

How many major figures in Paganism are male? Gerald Gardner for example. I don't think men are under-represented. Paganism is attempting to readress the gender power balance and there will be some women who tip it too far the other way. If you find you are being belittled by your current group I suggest you look for another one.

[Clive]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

I think we as humans often make the mistake of generalizing when we don't mean to. No, it is not accurate to say that Paganism in general is overly male- or female-oriented. In general, I would say that gender equality is pretty much the norm among Pagans. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. Are there women who are prejudiced against men? You can bet your ass there are, I've met plenty of them (incidentally, most of them were lesbians). Do most women share this prejudice? No.

You may call me a sad, privileged boy if you wish, but I can tell you that it is very irksome to a male who has always believed in gender equality to be treated by a female as if we are evil because we have penises. It does happen and it can be upsetting, even if it isn't the norm.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Except that it's not okay at all...what if it were an anti-black diatribe?

in a room full of kkk, who the heck is going to think someone has a problem with it...
I get its a crappy comparison but you started it.

Without knowing the background of the group, it is hard to say. For all I know they were a group of dianist feminists, to join a group like that you have a tendancy to fall into a certain category, hard core exclusionist feminist! but I don't know eigther direction.

People have the right to say what they want, I imagine that since I don't know much about Irish laws, it is still technically true there. If it bugs you say something, if you don't it will continue. I have never been in a group where this happened, specifically, unless it was a womens group, and someone was having "guy specific" troubles. If you think I'm wrong you are totally allowed to, just like I can think what I like too. If a group is not for you, find a new one, if you feel like a group is "ist" againt you, it clearly is not the group for you. I was trying to say it more politely, but sometimes polite does'nt work...

[Moody Thursday]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

This is stemming from my experiences over the last few months. Ive lived in the midlands where there was loads of folk traditions that neopagans would enjoy but no neopagan moots, when I moved back up towards the east coast I started getting back into moots. I hadnt noticed before so maybe Im more sensitive to it at the mo but a lot of man bashing goes on. Men dont want to be fathers, men arent commiitted to relationships, the patriarchy oppresses women all that stuff goes on while Im sitting there looking on. Im no vegitable I fight my corner but I get "oh youre the exception then"... is it that strong a tendancy in neopaganism or is it just the company Im in here?

Looking back we have had theories of neolithic goddess cults and matrifocal societies that vanished because christianity destroyed paganism and put a patriarchy in place. While theories like that arent central to neopaganism that goddess monotheism comes up regularly, maybe in new age more then neopaganism... but to me, with the wieght of it baring down on me as I type I feel like its all pervasive. Im questioning whether in becoming a neopagan I positioned myself to be second class because of my gender?

I just wanted to add that, that is not true feminism. Feminism isn't about male-bashing, it's about equality, women's rights, self-esteem for females of all ages, and sisterhood. I know it has gathered a negative connotation over time and there are extreme feminists who do male-bash, but all in all, it's supposed to be about a positive message, not a negative one :-)

[Nordic Druid]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

I think it's really silly that people keep saying things like "sexist" and "unfair".

Sorry, but since when was the world not male-dominated? One facet of life not totally immersed in wiener-worshipping and people lose their minds. I think it's quite fair, however fairness and equal speaking time for the goddess and the god is so impossible to comprehend to some that by comparison it's 100% ladycentric. Sad.

And btw, you can't be sexist towards men. Sexism=prejudice+opression. You can't oppress men based on them being men. No matter what, men will still be the dominant sex, they will still have male privilege and enjoy the perks of not being born female in a man's world.

Some small groups of paganism and neopaganism are strictlychick-centered. I would say the vast majority are not.

Boo hoo, sad privileged boy tears.

Im sorry to reign on your feminist parade but there is something called natural strengths. Men are in general stronger than women and less likely to go into depression and stress than women are, and women generally hav higher work ethic levels and are better at working with kids. Thats that way because way back when when mammoths and smilodons roamed the earth the guys would go out and hunt the dinner for the village, and the women would stay back and take care of the next generation. Thats not because of sexism, thats because thats what the two genders were genetically hardwired to do. And the reason women are considered "lower in society" is because that ancient social structure has carried on into today's, simply because people value commercial work more than houseold work. Tecknically men are perfectly suited to their job as breadwinners and women are perfectly suited to their role as well, and each will end up doing his or her role whether they realize it or not. So get over yourself and start doing some research as to why society is this way.
since the goddess and the god are both opposite and equal, it makes sense that men and women are both opposite and equal as well.
Without each doing exactly what it does we as a species wouldve died out long ago

[thalassa]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Tecknically men are perfectly suited to their job as breadwinners and women are perfectly suited to their role as well, and each will end up doing his or her role whether they realize it or not. So get over yourself and start doing some research as to why society is this way.

My mom makes twice what my dad did, and makes three times what my step-dad does. My husband's mother is a retired detective. I outranked my husband when we got out of the military because I can make a grown man cry and carry just as much shit as a man for just as long. And while he can bench more than I can, I could break his skull between my legs if I wanted to--since I can max out the inner and outer thigh machines at the gym (and he thinks that is hella hot). Oh, and I have a man that babysits my kids, not a woman...and my son plays with dolls and my daughter with trucks, just as much as the other way around.

People have different skills and interests, period. Culture and nurture have just as much, if not more, to do with gender differences XX vs XY. Biological differences don't account for much difference between what the average man and the average woman can do when they have the same training. And the only one that needs to get over themselves and do research is you.

[/end personal comment]



MOD NOTE: This thread is locked for being so ridiculously off topic and asinine as to be pointless. Plus the person that started it is banned anyhow.