Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

Alas!

Standardized tests are OK - they serve a purpose (assuming they are well constructed), but they should not be the thing driving the entire curriculum. Just to give you a bit of an idea about what over reliance on these tests causes...

... we no longer have students read entire novels in school. There's no time. We have been told that, from now on, we will be teaching "bites" of a novel, and filling in the rest with a movie version, or summary. It looks like To Kill a Mockingbird will now be reduced to about 15 paragraphs.

Oh yeah... we are no longer allowed to use "tracking" (grouping students for instruction, based on their skills and abilities). Of course, the reason that we used to do this is that by grouping students by ability, we can directly tailor what we teach and the way we teach it to the needs of the class. Unfortunately, since all students have to learn the same things, no matter what (due to the tests)...

[DanieMarie]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

Who makes up this stuff? Have they ever even been in a classroom since they left school?

It seems to be a big issue everywhere...a lot of the people in charge of organizing education aren't even education professionals. In those cases, it's super important that teachers input is considered.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

LOL - not in America.

In America, we let politicians decide what good education is. For instance, Romney was running around telling people that "class size doesn't matter" (oddly, the "research" which demonstrates this is all put out by Republican think-tanks). However, he sent his kids to a private school, and paid a lot of money to have them in classes of 6 (yes, I said classes of 6), rather than 30.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

It's run by politicians everywhere. Ideally, you get a minister of education who is a former teacher (BC's current minister of education was a teacher, for example), but this isn't always the case. I think when it's not (and actually, even when it is), it's important to talk to the teachers.

[Ula]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

Some kids are not cut out for school. I would love to see apprenticeship programs come back. I had kids on probation who were bright but just not book kids. If they could have done three days a week with an electrician or mechanic outside of school and got some pay, even if 10 bucks they may have stayed in school and known a trade. PHY Ed classes are outdated and some kids just can't learn with the lecture method. There is so much wrong with school and kids and parents. The whole system needs an overhaul.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

I like the idea of having both. We have that here, and the fact that some people go to high school longer and that there are "different" kinds of school depending on whether you get fed into university or an apprenticeship can look helpful in theory, but it does divide people and keep a lot of class divisions in place. No matter how intelligent you are, you're not likely to go to university if your parents didn't. I think kids should go to school until grade 12 (or however long you do school), and have solid apprenticeships in place for afterwards, if that's where your talents lie.

[Ophidia]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

The thing about keeping kids in school, hammering on those 'basics' year after year... no one learns anything practical.

I had an amazing experience during 8th grade. I was in pre-algebra (for the second time around, heh), and on Fridays our teacher would bring in sale papers. She would give us each a budget, a 'family' to shop for, and a timeframe. We had to make a balanced grocery list, keep track of taxable items, find or swap coupons, the whole shopping experience. For example: I had a budget of $120 and had to provide food/supplies for myself, a husband, a 2-year old and a 5-year old for 2 weeks. I remember sitting there a few weeks in, listening to everyone complain about how prices on meat were going up, trying to find decent diapers, or really getting pissed off when the teacher would a nasty surprise - like, not only did you have to plan your meals, but your partner had invited their mom & dad to stay for a week, so that's 2 extra mouths to feed. We sounded like 'grown-ups', and it gave all of us a way to relate what our parents or caretakers struggled with. We started actually bringing in sales papers & coupons for each other to use in 'real life', so to speak. When it was clear that we had a solid understanding of that, she started adding in utility bills and checkbook balancing. The first time I walked into a grocery store, I felt confident in my ability to actually shop for food - and even knew about sticking to the perimeter & avoiding the temptation of end caps and convenience items (those things placed right next to the register that you don't actually need but are sooo shiny). My husband was clueless his first time in a super market - when I met him all he had in his house was packaged donuts & instant coffee.

You look at all the businesses that fail, all the little start-ups that go nowhere... even the dot.com bubble in the 80's. Most people have no real opportunity to learn how to successfully run a business unless they go to college or have a business in their family that they work at from the time they're kids. Most high school graduates sort of stumble from one occupation to the next, one job to the next, and settle for something that doesn't really interest them or give them the chance to branch out. Having apprenticeship programs (or internships if that word sounds less feudal, lol) during junior high & high school would give kids a broader range of experiences to take with them once they are ready to leave the school system and go into the workforce. I know quite a few people who are basically professional students because they never could successfully make the transition, and getting degrees & deeper into student loan debts seemed like a better alternative than a food service McJob.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

The thing about keeping kids in school, hammering on those 'basics' year after year... no one learns anything practical.

I had an amazing experience during 8th grade. I was in pre-algebra (for the second time around, heh), and on Fridays our teacher would bring in sale papers. She would give us each a budget, a 'family' to shop for, and a timeframe. We had to make a balanced grocery list, keep track of taxable items, find or swap coupons, the whole shopping experience. For example: I had a budget of $120 and had to provide food/supplies for myself, a husband, a 2-year old and a 5-year old for 2 weeks. I remember sitting there a few weeks in, listening to everyone complain about how prices on meat were going up, trying to find decent diapers, or really getting pissed off when the teacher would a nasty surprise - like, not only did you have to plan your meals, but your partner had invited their mom & dad to stay for a week, so that's 2 extra mouths to feed. We sounded like 'grown-ups', and it gave all of us a way to relate what our parents or caretakers struggled with. We started actually bringing in sales papers & coupons for each other to use in 'real life', so to speak. When it was clear that we had a solid understanding of that, she started adding in utility bills and checkbook balancing. The first time I walked into a grocery store, I felt confident in my ability to actually shop for food - and even knew about sticking to the perimeter & avoiding the temptation of end caps and convenience items (those things placed right next to the register that you don't actually need but are sooo shiny). My husband was clueless his first time in a super market - when I met him all he had in his house was packaged donuts & instant coffee.

You look at all the businesses that fail, all the little start-ups that go nowhere... even the dot.com bubble in the 80's. Most people have no real opportunity to learn how to successfully run a business unless they go to college or have a business in their family that they work at from the time they're kids. Most high school graduates sort of stumble from one occupation to the next, one job to the next, and settle for something that doesn't really interest them or give them the chance to branch out. Having apprenticeship programs (or internships if that word sounds less feudal, lol) during junior high & high school would give kids a broader range of experiences to take with them once they are ready to leave the school system and go into the workforce. I know quite a few people who are basically professional students because they never could successfully make the transition, and getting degrees & deeper into student loan debts seemed like a better alternative than a food service McJob.

Cool! In 8th or 9th grade we learned how to balance a checkbook - that was the most valuable thing I ever learned in Math class. I completely agree that school does not prepare people for life/business.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

Internships can be set up in different ways, of course, and when they work they are great.

At this school, we have a school store, run by students.

We have a class where students build an entire house every year - including the wiring and plumbing and heating system, which is then sold cheaply to a needy family.

We have a school newspaper, run by students (I am adviser).

We have an auto shop, run by students.

The agriculture classes do actual farming, repair machinery, raise meat birds, cut trees, etc.

We used to have a print shop, run by students, but that went away... Funding cuts...

There are actually more hands-on programs around here than I can remember. And, of course, when it can be fit into a class (unfortunately time is short, this has to do with State & Federal B.S.) we try to teach what is practical (as in Perzephone's example), as well as what the G-men demand.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

By the way, here's what is happening in Michigan...

It appears the legislature is prepared to push HB 5923 and HB 6004 through the "lame duck" session in an effort to eliminate a local community's ability to guide educational policy. These two bills would create new kinds of schools and a statewide "takeover district" to direct them.
The November Eastsider newsletter highlighted HB 5923 a revision to the Revised School Code which would allow for the creation of a number of new schools, expanded online learning, and adjunct instructor certification. These new schools include: online schools, for profit-run schools, and schools run by businesses, universities, community organizations, and municipal governments. HB 6004 would expand the authority of interlocal agreement between Detroit Public Schools and Eastern Michigan University that created the Education Achievement Authority (EAA), a virtual state run school district. The legislation would expand the EAA's current reach from Detroit to the entire state, allowing the state to assume control of local school districts, removing control from local school board members, parents and educators. This statewide school district would eliminate time-honored "neighborhood schools," further eroding the public school system.
This legislation is not research based and would destroy our Public School System. We are being asked to contact our elected representatives to let them know that this is not a good plan.

If anybody bothers to read this, I want to point out something important - on-line schools.

While there is nothing wrong with on-line learning, there is something wrong about what is being done with the idea.

Federal law mandates free k-12 education. If all schools become privatized, obviously the government isn't meeting it's obligations. Enter on-line schools.

All that has to happen is that on-line education be offered to people for free, funded by the state, and the requirement is met.

It doesn't matter if it works or not... it just has to be offered, and if it is, technically, there is still free education.

I wonder how many people can learn calculus without a teacher to help them. I wonder how many third graders will sit at a computer and do school work every day, without some kind of supervisor there to keep them on track...

I wonder how many parents would have the time or inclination to supervise their kid's education from home... when mom & dad are most likely away from home working all day...

Remember that these computer educated people of the future are all going to be kids who come from families who don't have the extra cash to pay a private school (i.e.: lower middle class and down). If you want to see an exponentially increasing gap between the rich and the poor, watch what happens in American public education.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

I totally agree that getting practical experience DURING school is a wonderful idea!

I also think that schools do need to teach more practical things. Even my beloved Canadian education system needs a lot of work on this. Stuff like how to do a proper household budget and the concept of credit would do a lot.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

By the way, here's what is happening in Michigan...



If anybody bothers to read this, I want to point out something important - on-line schools.

While there is nothing wrong with on-line learning, there is something wrong about what is being done with the idea.

Federal law mandates free k-12 education. If all schools become privatized, obviously the government isn't meeting it's obligations. Enter on-line schools.

All that has to happen is that on-line education be offered to people for free, funded by the state, and the requirement is met.

It doesn't matter if it works or not... it just has to be offered, and if it is, technically, there is still free education.

I wonder how many people can learn calculus without a teacher to help them. I wonder how many third graders will sit at a computer and do school work every day, without some kind of supervisor there to keep them on track...

I wonder how many parents would have the time or inclination to supervise their kid's education from home... when mom & dad are most likely away from home working all day...

Remember that these computer educated people of the future are all going to be kids who come from families who don't have the extra cash to pay a private school (i.e.: lower middle class and down). If you want to see an exponentially increasing gap between the rich and the poor, watch what happens in American public education.

Hmmmm, I don't see that working at all! But the problem with "free public education" is that is isn't free. In most states it's covered by property taxes. That's what drove me to leave NJ. I was paying 7K a year for other people's kids to go to school. That stuff's got to change. There is so much anger about the inequity of property tax in some places, it's unbelievable. I don't really think it's right that child-free, or people whose children have gone through the system, etc., should have to pay for this. We already have car insurance rate hikes to cover the uninsured. What's next? Paying for other people's dogs to have rabies shots? It all reeks of socialism, which Americans love to dread - but here we are.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

...I don't really think it's right that child-free, or people whose children have gone through the system, etc., should have to pay for this. We already have car insurance rate hikes to cover the uninsured. What's next? Paying for other people's dogs to have rabies shots? It all reeks of socialism, which Americans love to dread - but here we are.

Yes - you have a good point. Here, we are a poor community, and property taxes are fairly low, and unemployment is high. As a result, a large segment of our population is made up of retirees who move here because it's cheap, and who either don't have kids, or whose kids are grown up and gone.

However, the last two times we had to vote on a millage increase, the increase passed.

I don't know why retirees voted to raise their property taxes in support of schools, but it may be because they realize that things - including their lives - go so much better if their fellow citizens are reasonably well educated. Without it, you'd have an increase in crime, increase of people who don't work, and an ignorant population forever on the edge of rebellion. This is not what you want to retire into...

On the other hand, I also understand that retired people are on a fixed income - sometimes a very tiny fixed income - and I can certainly understand why they would chose not to raise property taxes.

I'm just glad that not everybody thinks that way...

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

Yes - you have a good point. Here, we are a poor community, and property taxes are fairly low, and unemployment is high. As a result, a large segment of our population is made up of retirees who move here because it's cheap, and who either don't have kids, or whose kids are grown up and gone.

However, the last two times we had to vote on a millage increase, the increase passed.

I don't know why retirees voted to raise their property taxes in support of schools, but it may be because they realize that things - including their lives - go so much better if their fellow citizens are reasonably well educated. Without it, you'd have an increase in crime, increase of people who don't work, and an ignorant population forever on the edge of rebellion. This is not what you want to retire into...

On the other hand, I also understand that retired people are on a fixed income - sometimes a very tiny fixed income - and I can certainly understand why they would chose not to raise property taxes.

I'm just glad that not everybody thinks that way...

I think Lottery pays for education in some states....that sounds good to me - NJ has casinos, etc., yet has super-high taxes. I know of some older people with paid-off mortgages, forced out of their lifelong homes because of the taxes. It isn't going to teacher pay - a lot goes to perks we never heard of years ago, like Olympic sized pools, while teachers are still paying for some basic supplies out of their own pockets. Anyway - back to the online schooling, etc., when I was a kid (arrrrghh, I'm old) parents were very involved in schools, and kids respected teachers, much more than today. My first grade class had about 50 kids and we sat up straight, hands folded on the desk. Nobody had ADD, etc., and I never heard of any kid being allergic to peanut butter. Many issues at play today, I know, but something or some things are very, very wrong with the kind of education kids are getting, and with the whole system.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

I think Lottery pays for education in some states....that sounds good to me...

Thirty years ago Michigan voted in a lottery. We were told that the money from the lottery would go to education.

What we WEREN'T told was that the money would not be in addition to, but would be instead of the money we were already getting. It ended up in big funding cuts.

The lotteries don't make as much money as you think. When you give a single prize of 500 million dollars (plus all the other, smaller awards), that money comes from somewhere...