Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

[Ophidia]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

surely that is illegal?

People are under the impression that it's illegal for a job to fire a person for 'no reason'. The majority of US employees are 'at will', meaning that they have no explicit contract for set terms of employment. Wal-Mart is an 'at will' employer. Generally speaking, if Wal-Mart fires you for trying to organize a Union, that's their business. You can still go to the unemployment office & apply for unemployment, and would probably receive it if you could substantially prove that was why Wal-Mart fired you. If they have it in their records as poor performance, insubordination, instigation, what have you, it's probably going to take an attorney to either get your job back or get your unemployment coverage.

There are a few illegal reasons to fire someone in the US, such as: whistle-blowing (complaining to OSHA or the labor board about actual safety hazards, bad business practices, harassment, that kind of thing), when you ask an employee to do something illegal and they refuse, as retaliation, discrimination (age, sexual orientation, gender, able-bodiedness, legal alien status), refusing a lie-detector test, or exercising given rights (taking approved/emergency medical leave, jury duty, military service, voting).

[DanieMarie]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

surely that is illegal?

or do Wallmart have some kind of special clause that allows them to prevent unions forming amongst their staff?

There are teachers' unions though AFAIK so just think how bad the pay would be otherwise!

It is illegal, but amazingly enough they've even managed it in Canada, and in Quebec no less (Quebec is one of the more "liberal" provinces and tends to vote for union-friendly parties). I think they just find whatever legal loophole they can manage and exploit it. They're Wal-Mart and can afford the best lawyers.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

It is illegal, but amazingly enough they've even managed it in Canada, and in Quebec no less (Quebec is one of the more "liberal" provinces and tends to vote for union-friendly parties). I think they just find whatever legal loophole they can manage and exploit it. They're Wal-Mart and can afford the best lawyers.

Having worked at wal-mart there is alot of stuff there against unions. They have a couple hours of "anti-union training videos" So they pretty much equate it with being lazy, and whether or not the people who happen to run the particular wal-mart will fire you for even saying union or not, people who don't know any better, (read as- most wal-mart employees) think unions will cost them more and not do anything for them.

And sorry for the derail, it was the only part of this topic that I really know much about!

[DanieMarie]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

In Canada you DO have a legal right to join a union and -technically- it's illegal (anywhere in the country) to fire employees for trying to start one:

http://www.bcgeu.ca/files/Fact3_Your_Rights_Join_Union.pdf

I'm sure Wal-Mart is able to get out of it, or maybe they just feel they can afford the fines.

They're wrong though...Superstore (or Loblaws in the east) has a union, and they're cheap as well. I always shop there when I'm back home over Wal-Mart. There was also an interesting article in the NY Times about Costco recently http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/bu...anted=all&_r=1

Savings do not have to come at the expense of employee rights.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

In Canada you DO have a legal right to join a union and -technically- it's illegal (anywhere in the country) to fire employees for trying to start one:

http://www.bcgeu.ca/files/Fact3_Your_Rights_Join_Union.pdf

I'm sure Wal-Mart is able to get out of it, or maybe they just feel they can afford the fines.

They're wrong though...Superstore (or Loblaws in the east) has a union, and they're cheap as well. I always shop there when I'm back home over Wal-Mart. There was also an interesting article in the NY Times about Costco recently http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/bu...anted=all&_r=1

Savings do not have to come at the expense of employee rights.

I tend to agree, but brainwashing is what it is... Effective in many places...

[DanieMarie]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

I think what happened in Quebec was that they shut down the actual store itself, which is kind of extreme. http://www.businessweek.com/stories/...-were-wal-mart

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

People are under the impression that it's illegal for a job to fire a person for 'no reason'. The majority of US employees are 'at will', meaning that they have no explicit contract for set terms of employment. Wal-Mart is an 'at will' employer. Generally speaking, if Wal-Mart fires you for trying to organize a Union, that's their business. You can still go to the unemployment office & apply for unemployment, and would probably receive it if you could substantially prove that was why Wal-Mart fired you. If they have it in their records as poor performance, insubordination, instigation, what have you, it's probably going to take an attorney to either get your job back or get your unemployment coverage.

Frequently, as a condition of being hired, an employer will have a person sign a paper giving the company the right to fire at will. You sign the paper, you've agreed to it. You don't sign the paper, you can't have the job.

My wife has been at Walmart for 10 years, which puts her about as high up on the pay scale as one can go there. Since she is an "expensive" employee, Walmart's "Terminator" - the guy who comes to the store just to find reasons to fire people - has her in his sights.

They've got F'ing cameras all over the place, and K'Roe just got written up for leaning on a counter while stocking a shelf. The nefarious deed is recorded on tape, and they have shown it to her. If she does it again, she's fired.


Meyers seems to be doing well with a union...

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

Frequently, as a condition of being hired, an employer will have a person sign a paper giving the company the right to fire at will. You sign the paper, you've agreed to it. You don't sign the paper, you can't have the job.

My wife has been at Walmart for 10 years, which puts her about as high up on the pay scale as one can go there. Since she is an "expensive" employee, Walmart's "Terminator" - the guy who comes to the store just to find reasons to fire people - has her in his sights.

They've got F'ing cameras all over the place, and K'Roe just got written up for leaning on a counter while stocking a shelf. The nefarious deed is recorded on tape, and they have shown it to her. If she does it again, she's fired.


Meyers seems to be doing well with a union...

There are many industries which I believe would not be able to function well without unions, and there are other industries where they are far less helpful. maybe a topic is in order... off to start a thread...

[Ophidia]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

It is illegal, but amazingly enough they've even managed it in Canada, and in Quebec no less (Quebec is one of the more "liberal" provinces and tends to vote for union-friendly parties). I think they just find whatever legal loophole they can manage and exploit it. They're Wal-Mart and can afford the best lawyers.

In the US it depends on what state you're working in as to how controversial/illegal union-busting is. Nevada's a 'Right to Work' state. It's a two-fold thing - there are no such things as 'Union Shops', meaning that a non-Union member can work at a place that has a Union but does not have to join. It's within an employer's right to fire Union members for harassing the non-Union people, which can mean anything from asking someone if they're Union to actually harassing them about it. But, an employee can't be fired for just asking about Unionization.

What's interesting about being in a Right-to-Work state is that it jeopardizes the jobs of non-Union workers when they're in a Union shop, which breeds all sorts of resentment towards both the Union and the employers. As a Union member, if I get called in for a disciplinary meeting, I can make everyone wait until I can do so with Union representation. It's harder to fire me without substantial justification, and if I do get fired, I can go to the Union and they will represent me in front of the Gods, HR, the Labor Board, and everyone. If I get wrongfully termed, and come back to work, I do so with full benefits, vacation time, my original seniority, and if they try to fire me again, it could easily be chalked up as retaliation for costing the company time and money.

If a non-Union member gets fired, they have no one to fight for them. Any representation they seek comes out of their pockets. They can be fired for no reason or any reason. And if they get their job back? It's usually like starting all over from the bottom. Plus, there's a huge 'fire me' target on them since they've cost the company time and money.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

Yeah in Canada it's a federal law, so there's no difference on a provincial level.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

One thing that gets me about the perception of teachers and how much they get paid is how people think of their hours. I often hear stuff like "Teachers make how much? But they only work 8:30-3 and they get 2 months off in the summer!" It's like people think it's some low-hours, cushy job. What they don't see is that teachers aren't just there when their kids are there. They're there earlier in the morning, and go home quite a bit after the kids leave. They also take work home with them....report cards, marking, letters to parents, lesson prep...all sorts of stuff. It's there in the evenings and even the weekends. And yes, they generally get holidays when the kids do, but there's work then too, and even in the summer, they have to spend a few days to a week taking everything down and cleaning out the classroom for the year, and a good week or more beforehand setting up and prepping for the next year.
I'm not a teacher, but I grew up in a house with one. I've helped out in a classroom. I've helped with lesson prep that didn't involve teacher knowledge (cutting out flashcards and stuff). I've even help mark worksheets and stuff (my mom teaches grade 1). I saw how much work my mom did every year. When you add up all the hours, even compensating for the longer holidays they get, it's probably more than full-time, and they don't get paid overtime.

[nbdy]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

With three kids, school is something I have thought about a lot. Alfie Kohn is my hero, and you can read some of his stuff here. I found his book What Does it Mean to be Well Educated? many years ago while scouring the bookstore for homeschooling materials and recommended it to several friends who are educators. No one disagreed. I have had conversations with my own kids' teachers, and they sing the same tune, though oh-so-quietly-lest-an-administrator-hear. Somehow, though, nothing is changing. Parents want it, teachers want it, why is it not changing?

Where to begin -- I have taught, though not in public schools. I had this strange notion that teaching "adults" would be easier since I could chuck the babysitter apron and just fail anybody who didn't come to class and do the work. I quickly discovered that was incorrect; even colleges are businesses and they want warm, paying people in every seat. Some people just are not cut from teacher-cloth, and I am one; however, the invaluable realization that occurred during that hellish year and a half of my life is that people who are cut from teacher-cloth are amazing human beings. It offends me to see them infantilized by such rigid requirements; it stifles good teachers and in no way makes bad teachers any better.

I hated the No Child legislation from the start. I thought, and still think, that it is a big boondoggle to send fat wads of tax money to a few cherry-picked testing companies. I have absolute confidence in our local school system to do an excellent job educating our children. Where, exactly, did we get the idea that our communities could not educate our children? Maybe I am just blessed to live in a great school district, but the talent and commitment I have seen amongst the teachers we have worked with here is beyond question. I get that there are troubled districts and troubled schools, and they should have access to assistance, though the prescription offered by NCLB probably won't be much help. Rather, a program that tailors intervention to the particular needs of a troubled school or district makes more sense. I'd guess that most districts can figure out what they need without too much help from the federal government.

So, that said, with NCLB gone our district should be able to release or reassign a healthy chunk of administrators, hire more teachers, and give all the teachers a raise. There is no good reason to have as many administrators as teachers, which is what we have right now. Surely we could muddle through with a 1:5 administrator to teacher ratio. After all, the whole point of the school system is to TEACH.

For what it is worth, though I have not homeschooled for years, I learned how very much can be done with very little cash during that part of our lives. There is a lot of waste and frivolousness in our schools. That may not be the case everywhere, but it is here. For example, it is only recently that they have enforced a rule to shut off lights and machinery in the administration building. Common sense, right? Do people leave their computers and lights on at home all day while they are gone? Of course not, but the administration building was a beacon of everlasting light. People got a bit crazy on them when they started making noises about needing more money -- "Well, try shutting off your lights first!"

I dunno. Maybe I said something on topic. Um, classes should be about 15 kids per teacher, imo, and teachers should be able to afford independent living without a roommate.

p.s. regarding why a teacher would be at a private school when pay is poor: the teacher I know at a very prestigious private school was lured by her children getting scholarships to the school. Her pay is dismal, she did better in the public system, but she could never afford to send her children to this school without the scholarships.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

Has anyone seen this link?

http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-education-school-2011-12?op=1

Thought it added a useful bit of food for thought.

[nbdy]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

Has anyone seen this link?

http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-education-school-2011-12?op=1

Thought it added a useful bit of food for thought.

I think I like Finland.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Class Size and Teacher Pay in the US

Finland has one of the best education systems in the world...

Also, a lot of that was true for Canada when I was in school. Some of that has changed though, and I do wonder if those changes are what's caused it to slip in rankings. It's still in the top 10, but it used to be more like top 5.