Utopia

[Diogenes]

Re: Utopia

“The saying of Diogenes, ‘Aristotle breakfasts when Philip [of Macedon] pleases, and Diogenes when Diogenes pleases.’”(Plutarch, On Exile 12, 604d;G30)
Utopia is in doing what one wills.

[utopia]

Re: Utopia

lololol i thought this thread was about me!!!

[Archimedes]

Re: Utopia

Directed to Diogenes,

Individual freedom without collective social cooperation or responsibility is doomed to failure.

[Diogenes]

Re: Utopia

Directed to Diogenes,

Individual freedom without collective social cooperation or responsibility is doomed to failure.

Life is a series of failures and who wants to live forever? Free agents who do what they will are advantaged by cooperating with others when they can. That is basic evolutionary science. Doing what one wills does not exempt on from responsibility either. One can only take responsibility for their actions if they do what they will. If they do not take responsibility then it wasnt their will. Dig?

[Archimedes]

Re: Utopia

Life is a series of failures and who wants to live forever? Free agents who do what they will are advantaged by cooperating with others when they can. That is basic evolutionary science. Doing what one wills does not exempt on from responsibility either. One can only take responsibility for their actions if they do what they will. If they do not take responsibility then it wasnt their will. Dig?

A world of selfish egoists is doomed to failure is all I am saying. I would actually argue such a world is a evolutionary dead end if you wish to speak about evolution. Think of a feeding frenzy of parasitic organisms that kill off their host.

As technology increases along with human beings propensity for hyper competition, infighting, and unnecessary consumption the more dangerous things become for the world concerning supporting humanity's existence. Individuality and collectivism does not necessarily need to be in conflict with each other, but ignoring collectivism altogether for some fantastic individual only ideological doctrine is impractical.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Utopia

why cant one be idvidualised and part of a collective at the same time, i see it everyday, (well not litrally but alot)

[Archimedes]

Re: Utopia

why cant one be idvidualised and part of a collective at the same time, i see it everyday, (well not litrally but alot)

The key is balance between the two which is hard because both often enough oppose each other.

The goal of course which always has been since time immemorial is to devise a system that accommodates both.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Utopia

there is a system its been around for decades, look at the military, and add on to that tthe system of government i was saying about before, (still need to talk to you in detail about that haha) that would bring that into civillian life without the military constraints aswell

[Archimedes]

Re: Utopia

there is a system its been around for decades, look at the military, and add on to that tthe system of government i was saying about before, (still need to talk to you in detail about that haha) that would bring that into civillian life without the military constraints aswell

You can't enforce freedom. It has to be willing all on it's own through people without intervention or impediments. This whole military industrial complex of enforcement is part of the problem with monetary mechanisms on the other hand being the other half. Both systems are hindrances to people's freedom.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Utopia

This whole military industrial complex of enforcement

not if you dont force someone, true leadership isnt about forcing anyone, its about getting someone to do something you want because they wat to do it

[Luce]

Re: Utopia

So, does anybody believe in the possibility of achieving a utopic society?

Is a social or societal utopia achievable?

Describe your thoughts here whether they be pro or con.

Utopias are all built on great big stacks of bones. People bones.

As a result, I am against them as a matter of principle.

[Kahlenda]

Re: Utopia

and sometimes people do need a forceful nudge in the right direction, humans are naturally lazy, we get complacent we dont like change.

[Archimedes]

Re: Utopia

not if you dont force someone, true leadership isnt about forcing anyone, its about getting someone to do something you want because they wat to do it

At this point in time almost all historical societies have been based upon coercion including our present ones around the planet. They are not based upon understanding or reasoning, but instead based upon a series of quid pro quos or ultimatums.

[Luce]

Re: Utopia

not if you dont force someone, true leadership isnt about forcing anyone, its about getting someone to do something you want because they wat to do it

I'm gonna argue that. True leadership is when you can get people to do what you want by whatever means work.

[Diogenes]

Re: Utopia

A world of selfish egoists is doomed to failure is all I am saying. I would actually argue such a world is a evolutionary dead end if you wish to speak about evolution. Think of a feeding frenzy of parasitic organisms that kill off their host.

As technology increases along with human beings propensity for hyper competition, infighting, and unnecessary consumption the more dangerous things become for the world concerning supporting humanity's existence. Individuality and collectivism does not necessarily need to be in conflict with each other, but ignoring collectivism altogether for some fantastic individual only ideological doctrine is impractical.

I am talking about a bled of individualism and collective action. What I am saying which you seem to be missing is that since agents are similar in key ways when they act freely they will be advantaged by cooperating when they can. Why would I do everything myself when I could share the work with a few others and get better results to boot. But to prevent cooperation from becoming collective groupthink, people need to be individuals first.