Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

[Poshi]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

For me, it's not the fact that she and her husband want a traditional relationship that bothers me. It's that this is what she is telling another young couple, with the intention to convince and persuade them to live like she and her husband do. That's what bothers me. She isn't simply content to have the freedom to live her life and have her relationship be the way she wants it. She genuinely believes it to be against God to have a different idea of what works for you. That's the issue, from where I stand. I think it's great if their relationship works for them. But they want it to work for everyone.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

For me, it's not the fact that she and her husband want a traditional relationship that bothers me. It's that this is what she is telling another young couple, with the intention to convince and persuade them to live like she and her husband do. That's what bothers me. She isn't simply content to have the freedom to live her life and have her relationship be the way she wants it. She genuinely believes it to be against God to have a different idea of what works for you. That's the issue, from where I stand. I think it's great if their relationship works for them. But they want it to work for everyone.

Yes, and that's the (much larger) issue of proselytism in general.

[Poshi]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

I've seen it too, and it's great. I've seen lots MORE that become controlling and abusive, though. Because BOTH partners are not putting the other first. Many, many times you have one trusting, loving person performing their role, and the other is doing awful things behind their back. Wouldn't it be great to have a fool-proof integrity test? If I could have administered one on every first date I went on, It would have sure saved me a lotta time!!

Well, I think that that has less to do with gender roles and more to do with dishonest people. It sure seems you haven't had a lot of luck with trustworthy folks. I think that any relationship can turn abusive, but that traditional relationships are more likely to because of the submissive aspects of the woman's role (although in "non-traditional" relationships where there may be two men or two women, or the woman is in control of the man, the same principle applies). It automatically gives one person all the power to receive submission. In a situation where two people respect each other equally, although they are both different and do indeed fill different aspects of the relationship (regardless of what those are for that specific couple), it is much less likely to find one person who has the power to abuse their partner because they're on equal footing. However, even in a relationship focused on both people having their equal say, relationships can take a negative twist and one or both people can become abusive. It's less about the "type" of relationship and more about the individual people and whether or not they're going to treat others well.

[MoonRaven]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

That's a very brilliant and valid question. I would say it's probable that Monster wasn't considering that when he made his post. With two women as with any relationship, there is respect, balance, and equality necessary to make a relationship work, and to me it's actually proof that traditional gender roles shouldn't (always) apply. You can't have both people in that relationship be submissive just because they're women. They have to do whatever works for their individual relationship, meaning however they are happy is how they should do it. That's also how it should be for a relationship with two men, or a man and a woman.

See I'm lesbian, that's why I asked. I'm sorry if it appeared that I was subterfuging.
I know this is a minority relationship wise, but I am always interested when it comes to relationship talks how others think same sex couples work. Probably the most common comment I have received is: "So which one of you is that man?, so I am generally curious as to how others think they work.

Again I apologise if it appeared as if I was being less than honest.

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[Shahaku]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

I've seen it too, and it's great. I've seen lots MORE that become controlling and abusive, though. Because BOTH partners are not putting the other first. Many, many times you have one trusting, loving person performing their role, and the other is doing awful things behind their back. Wouldn't it be great to have a fool-proof integrity test? If I could have administered one on every first date I went on, It would have sure saved me a lotta time!!

Lol, yea. You wanna know why I trust my now hubby?

1. When we first started dating he flat out told me: "I cheated on my last serious girlfriend (this was in middle school fyi). I kissed another girl, I just got caught up in the moment. I was so guilty, I told her the next day and broke it off." He is still close friends with said girl, it was another friend of theirs he kissed. Both confirmed said story.

2. I am not the jealous type. I have flat out said, "If you want to see someone else, I don't care. I just have a few rules: 1. they get tested for STDs and provide us with the results. 2. they are not trying to steal you away and understand you are in a committed relationship. 3. I am made aware of it."

As for me, I have trust issues. I don't want to be with other guys because I don't want to put in the effort to trust them enough for it. In fact, if anything were to happen in the current relationship, I think I would be quite happy to live out the rest of my life single. And off-grid.

[Poshi]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

See I'm lesbian, that's why I asked. I'm sorry if it appeared that I was subterfuging.
I know this is a minority relationship wise, but I am always interested when it comes to relationship talks how others think same sex couples work. Probably the most common comment I have received is: "So which one of you is that man?, so I am generally curious as to how others think they work.

Again I apologise if it appeared as if I was being less than honest.

No no, please don't apologize! I was fascinated by your question, as I hadn't been focusing on that. It think there are three possible reasons why you get asked that. 1) People are too close-minded to understand that not all relationships have to work in a traditional sense. Obviously, this is the less-desirable reason. 2) It's their way of less-awkwardly asking you how your relationship personally works. I can see how it could be uncomfortable to ask someone, "Oh, you're lesbian? That's neat! How does your relationship work and divide up? Which one of you takes a more leadership role? Is one of you more dominant than the other?" See, it seems easier to wrap up those thoughts in the word in our society that means that to a lot of people. "Man". That in itself is also a form of close-mindedness. 3) They might just totally miss the point on what it means (or doesn't mean) to be lesbian. A lot of people who aren't as open to same sex couples tend to think that the reason people want to be in a relationship like that is because they "want to be like a boy" or "want to be like a girl". Which obviously is sometimes, but not always by any means, the case.
How I feel about it is that it really doesn't matter and isn't any of my business anyways. In my relationship, my boyfriend is more dominant in some ways, and I'm more dominant in others. It works for us. And no one ever comes up to me and asks me if my boyfriend is the man in our relationship or if I am. I don't see why same sex couples should get any different treatment.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

See I'm lesbian, that's why I asked. I'm sorry if it appeared that I was subterfuging.
I know this is a minority relationship wise, but I am always interested when it comes to relationship talks how others think same sex couples work. Probably the most common comment I have received is: "So which one of you is that man?, so I am generally curious as to how others think they work.

Again I apologise if it appeared as if I was being less than honest.

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Hmmm, can't find it. Maybe I haven't made enough posts or something to have this feature yet. *shrug*

Change whatever theme you've got the site set in. The rep icon doesn't show up properly in all of them.

[MoonRaven]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Hmmm, can't find it. Maybe I haven't made enough posts or something to have this feature yet. *shrug*

Never mind D, I found it. Because I use the 'Mint' background it was a little hard to spot.

No no, please don't apologize! I was fascinated by your question, as I hadn't been focusing on that. It think there are three possible reasons why you get asked that. 1) People are too close-minded to understand that not all relationships have to work in a traditional sense. Obviously, this is the less-desirable reason. 2) It's their way of less-awkwardly asking you how your relationship personally works. I can see how it could be uncomfortable to ask someone, "Oh, you're lesbian? That's neat! How does your relationship work and divide up? Which one of you takes a more leadership role? Is one of you more dominant than the other?" See, it seems easier to wrap up those thoughts in the word in our society that means that to a lot of people. "Man". That in itself is also a form of close-mindedness. 3) They might just totally miss the point on what it means (or doesn't mean) to be lesbian. A lot of people who aren't as open to same sex couples tend to think that the reason people want to be in a relationship like that is because they "want to be like a boy" or "want to be like a girl". Which obviously is sometimes, but not always by any means, the case.
How I feel about it is that it really doesn't matter and isn't any of my business anyways. In my relationship, my boyfriend is more dominant in some ways, and I'm more dominant in others. It works for us. And no one ever comes up to me and asks me if my boyfriend is the man in our relationship or if I am. I don't see why same sex couples should get any different treatment.

The reason I apologised was that when I read your original answer I realised that it might have appeared that I was holding back and then wanted to pounce people if they answered 'wrong', but nothing was further from my mind.

I agree with your theories completely. Though in my personal experience 1 and 2 are the most common. But then that is my experience.
What I find most sad about the whole thing is that, again based exclusively on my own experience and what I have been told by others (nothing scientific about this in the least), is that younger people are as prone to number 1 as older ones at least when it comes to discussing same sex relationships the fact that there might not be a man, or a woman, in a relationship boggles many peoples minds.
3 I have found mostly in the older generations.

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Change whatever theme you've got the site set in. The rep icon doesn't show up properly in all of them.

Spotted it already Mask, but thanks anyway.

[RainbowDemonic]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Read the OP and link. It's typical fundamentalist BS. I grew up with it - spent a decade in the core of it - clawed my way out by the skin of my teeth at a very high cost, and have never once looked back. I know exactly where she's getting her source material from and it all gets nightmarish in actual practice. I know that smile of hers. I used to wear it years ago - it got me a poster-child spot advertising a cult camp for torturing teens into submission to a particular mega-sect of fundamentalism (I had been one of those teens deemed a "success" - funny, because look at me now!). I guarantee she's one of the most miserable people you could ever know, trapped and enslaved and told to smile about it. We ex-fundies can spot 'em miles and miles away. We've all learned to keep our distance. That sick feeling you get in your gut about her blog? Trust it.

If only the poor girl had stuck to her Christianity and stayed away from extremism...seen it way too many times. Very sad. Hopefully someday she'll find her freedom. Most stay trapped on and off for many years even after attempting to exit.

[Monster]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Why do you feel that way? What makes you think that that is an ideal relationship? I'm not trying to attack you or anything, I'm merely curious because it's so different from how I feel personally.

I know some think I'm "trolling" by the wonderful negative rep I got haha. But since you are genuinely curious, and being nice about it, I don't mind telling you.

Relationships are at their very heart, about power and control. Who has it, and who wants it. Whats the old saying? Nature abhors a vacuum. And if there is no one in control, someone will step in to fill that vacuum. Men, no matter if you look from a religious standpoint or a nature standpoint.....are supposed to be the ones in control. Men are the protectors and the hunter/gatherers. Women are the mothers and the nurturers. Males protect and provide for the women and the children. Women keep the home front and raise the children. That, at its basic heart....is it. This relationship has been polluted and twisted by the uber feminist movements and has tried....unfortunately, successfully....to undermine the male's role in the male/female unit.

Men....real men, lead. Period. IMO, the perfect relationship is similar to a wolf pack hierarchy. There is the alpha male and the alpha female. Think of it as having a supreme commander, and a battlefield general. The female is smart and capable in her own right, yet the male has overall control. There can only be one person in charge....of anything. Whats the other old saying about too many cooks in the kitchen?

Besides...men are controlled by their ego. Women are controlled by their sense of security. In the beginning of the relationship, she strokes his ego. "Oh, you're so great. So, handsome. And you just have the biggest penis EVER." What does this do? Makes the man feel good so he in turn wants to provide for her and give her her security that she wants. So they get married. He keeps giving and doing for her to make her feel more secure because that's how its supposed to work right?

Wrong.

What happens is he keeps giving and giving, and then she begins taking it for granted. He becomes weak in her eyes because he never tells her no. She took the control away from him, and she starts losing respect for him. At some point she starts running him down to her friends, etc etc. And its all downhill from there. He either doesn't do "enough" for her...doesn't make enough money, etc etc. Or, he makes enough money...but he's killing himself at work to do it and is never home. There's always going to be some excuse there.

And its all because he allowed her to take the power in the relationship and manipulate him.

Yes, women have a role to play in a relationship. Just like men have their role, and responsibility. The problem is, men aren't allowed to be men anymore. And if a man actually stands up for himself, he's a misogynist. Or hates women. Or whatever other catch phrase is popular this week.

I love women. Always have. But, the feminist movement screwed ya'll, badly. Ya'll should have stopped at equal pay and voting rights IMO. They have convinced women that they don't need men anymore, but then complain because men don't treat them the way they used to. I was raised to respect women and put them on a pedestal.

Unfortunately the average woman today acts like she needs to be kept on a leash.

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Our of curiosity what when the marriage consists of two women? And I am curious mind, not trying to bash anyone here, I honestly want to know.

There will always be one more in control than the other. If its same sex, then the control will fall with the alpha type. There is always one partner more submissive than the other. In this case gender isn't as much of an issue.

[Poshi]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

I see and understand what you mean, and I would agree that some relationships end the way that you describe. However, there are many aspects of what you said that I don't agree with.

First of all, this: "Relationships are at their very heart, about power and control". Are they about that? Sometimes. Should they be? Uh, no. Relationships where one person is seeking control over the other almost always end badly in one way or another. Either there is abuse, or the submissive partner is miserable and the relationship ends, or even worse, they're miserable and it doesn't end because they are too weak to get away from something that isn't good for them. Control in a relationship is not a desirable thing, and if someone seeks to be controlled by another person, it is not a healthy sign. Now, it's worth pointing out that being submissive and being a "follower" are two different things entirely. Some people don't like to be the decision makers, but no one likes to be controlled. No healthy person.

This is an excerpt from http://www.helpguide.org/mental/dome...es_effects.htm.

"Domestic abuse, also known as spousal abuse,occurs when one person in an intimate relationship or marriage tries to dominate and control the other person. Domestic abuse that includes physical violence is called domestic violence.Domestic violence and abuse are used for one purpose and one purpose only: to gain and maintain total control over you."

Secondly, I think you must have been in quite a few very unfortunate relationships in your time, or have otherwise witnessed very unfortunate ones. Some relationships work like that, yes, but not all of them. Not all women are manipulative people, and not all of them treat their boyfriends or husbands like they don't matter. Taking someone for granted, however, is an easy pattern to fall into. It has nothing to do with control, nor does lack of respect. I would never disrespect a man because he didn't tell me no. I don't want to be treated like a child by any man. I don't want to be treated like I need to be trained. I'm a person, not an animal and no one needs to tell me "no" just to keep me in line. If a woman is being manipulative, it isn't because the man relinquished his power, it's because there is an issue with that woman not being able to communicate. Men can be manipulative, too. I would venture to say it's manipulative to make sure to tell a woman no so that you can keep her in line.

Relationships are about respect, and about love, and about equality and understanding. Men and women fill different roles, yes, but that doesn't make one role more important than the other. And no one needs to be kept on a leash.

So, I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me, and I am glad for your perspective, but I think your real problem here is that you need to go look for some worthwhile women to spend your time around, or otherwise change your point of view on the ones you have already met. Have a good day.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

I agree with Poshi. Everyone's different and our freedom gives us the right to seek out the right kind of relationship for us. If ALL men were like my ex, I'd be hunkered down in a lab constructing a gender-targeted weapon of mass destruction. But I do not believe that they are, so I am here to live another day instead!!!

[RainbowDemonic]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

I know some think I'm "trolling" by the wonderful negative rep I got haha. But since you are genuinely curious, and being nice about it, I don't mind telling you.

Relationships are at their very heart, about power and control. Who has it, and who wants it. Whats the old saying? Nature abhors a vacuum. And if there is no one in control, someone will step in to fill that vacuum. Men, no matter if you look from a religious standpoint or a nature standpoint.....are supposed to be the ones in control. Men are the protectors and the hunter/gatherers. Women are the mothers and the nurturers. Males protect and provide for the women and the children. Women keep the home front and raise the children. That, at its basic heart....is it. This relationship has been polluted and twisted by the uber feminist movements and has tried....unfortunately, successfully....to undermine the male's role in the male/female unit.

Men....real men, lead. Period. IMO, the perfect relationship is similar to a wolf pack hierarchy. There is the alpha male and the alpha female. Think of it as having a supreme commander, and a battlefield general. The female is smart and capable in her own right, yet the male has overall control. There can only be one person in charge....of anything. Whats the other old saying about too many cooks in the kitchen?

Besides...men are controlled by their ego. Women are controlled by their sense of security. In the beginning of the relationship, she strokes his ego. "Oh, you're so great. So, handsome. And you just have the biggest penis EVER." What does this do? Makes the man feel good so he in turn wants to provide for her and give her her security that she wants. So they get married. He keeps giving and doing for her to make her feel more secure because that's how its supposed to work right?

Wrong.

What happens is he keeps giving and giving, and then she begins taking it for granted. He becomes weak in her eyes because he never tells her no. She took the control away from him, and she starts losing respect for him. At some point she starts running him down to her friends, etc etc. And its all downhill from there. He either doesn't do "enough" for her...doesn't make enough money, etc etc. Or, he makes enough money...but he's killing himself at work to do it and is never home. There's always going to be some excuse there.

And its all because he allowed her to take the power in the relationship and manipulate him.

Yes, women have a role to play in a relationship. Just like men have their role, and responsibility. The problem is, men aren't allowed to be men anymore. And if a man actually stands up for himself, he's a misogynist. Or hates women. Or whatever other catch phrase is popular this week.

I love women. Always have. But, the feminist movement screwed ya'll, badly. Ya'll should have stopped at equal pay and voting rights IMO. They have convinced women that they don't need men anymore, but then complain because men don't treat them the way they used to. I was raised to respect women and put them on a pedestal.

Unfortunately the average woman today acts like she needs to be kept on a leash.

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There will always be one more in control than the other. If its same sex, then the control will fall with the alpha type. There is always one partner more submissive than the other. In this case gender isn't as much of an issue.

If I may say so, as a woman I actually agree with most of this. My problems with fundamentalism aside, this philosophy isn't very far from my own. I've always loved that hubby is willing to push back when need be - to tell me not just no, but "Hell no!" when I'm too far out of line. We are equal, and that means in every way. That means I challenge him, and he challenges me, and we work together playing to our strengths and as a cohesive unit. That means when we don't get along, it can get feisty - like watching two wolves in a fit of snarls and teeth - but the moment we get back in sync with each other, we move as a unified force, from simple things like house chores right down to our magics and energy work. It means from the beginning I've respected him for being willing to stand up to me if he thinks I'm wrong. It's not that I belong on a leash, it's just that I don't believe human beings ever improve if they're surrounded by yes-men; the best relationship is one that compliments you but also helps you grow as a person, expands you, challenges you.

I also agree that many women can be real bitches. I know because as a bi chick, I gave up trying to find one a long time ago. I realized very quickly that their idea of a date is to smirk and watch the guy squirm and try to impress them - and when it's lesbian in nature, it's always a cat fight for them. I never understood why, and I still don't. All I know is I can't stand most women. I don't know how to put it into words very well, but most women today are just catty and it's a huge issue for me. I remember a chick "friend" (I'm going to put that in quotes because it's more like a person I tolerate the existence of, sometimes) of mine once nagged me because hubby had left her toilet seat up. "I see you haven't trained him," she said with a big smirk on her face. Trained him? He's my husband, not my dog. You can't put your own goddamn seat down? Get over yourself, ladies. I could tell lots and lots of horror stories. I stopped trying to find chick friends that didn't disgust me a long time ago because of things like that. Generally when the catty stuff starts up, I just smile and quietly bow out.

I was raised traditional, maybe that's the difference even though it's like pulling teeth for me to admit that. Despite the fact that my traditional upbringing took it all waaay too far, even after having gotten out, I still feel that it's not right to be a total **** to guys. One of the things that has glued myself and hubby together through hell and back again is that I don't believe he owes me anything simply by virtue of me being female. He owes me nothing. I owe him, in fact, to prove that I am a good person (not a housewife, necessarily, and lord knows he's always told me to stay out of his kitchen - he loves to cook). It takes two to do all this. I'll never be a limp-wristed submissive little puppet for him, but conversely, I refuse to ever believe that he should give his affection, his hard work, his care and strong embrace, without me giving everything I can in return.

That being said, men have issues of their own. As one example, I often meet guys who feel entitled to the body of every chick they meet - so much that they get downright pissed if turned down, even by women who are taken. Men can turn into total manchildren too. All in all, I think men and women both have their respective issues. And both parties need to just start treating each other with basic mutual human respect. The world could use more of that.

[Monster]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

If I may say so, as a woman I actually agree with most of this. My problems with fundamentalism aside, this philosophy isn't very far from my own. I've always loved that hubby is willing to push back when need be - to tell me not just no, but "Hell no!" when I'm too far out of line. We are equal, and that means in every way. That means I challenge him, and he challenges me, and we work together playing to our strengths and as a cohesive unit. That means when we don't get along, it can get feisty - like watching two wolves in a fit of snarls and teeth - but the moment we get back in sync with each other, we move as a unified force, from simple things like house chores right down to our magics and energy work. It means from the beginning I've respected him for being willing to stand up to me if he thinks I'm wrong. It's not that I belong on a leash, it's just that I don't believe human beings ever improve if they're surrounded by yes-men; the best relationship is one that compliments you but also helps you grow as a person, expands you, challenges you.

I also agree that many women can be real bitches. I know because as a bi chick, I gave up trying to find one a long time ago. I realized very quickly that their idea of a date is to smirk and watch the guy squirm and try to impress them - and when it's lesbian in nature, it's always a cat fight for them. I never understood why, and I still don't. All I know is I can't stand most women. I don't know how to put it into words very well, but most women today are just catty and it's a huge issue for me. I remember a chick "friend" (I'm going to put that in quotes because it's more like a person I tolerate the existence of, sometimes) of mine once nagged me because hubby had left her toilet seat up. "I see you haven't trained him," she said with a big smirk on her face. Trained him? He's my husband, not my dog. You can't put your own goddamn seat down? Get over yourself, ladies. I could tell lots and lots of horror stories. I stopped trying to find chick friends that didn't disgust me a long time ago because of things like that. Generally when the catty stuff starts up, I just smile and quietly bow out.

I was raised traditional, maybe that's the difference even though it's like pulling teeth for me to admit that. Despite the fact that my traditional upbringing took it all waaay too far, even after having gotten out, I still feel that it's not right to be a total **** to guys. One of the things that has glued myself and hubby together through hell and back again is that I don't believe he owes me anything simply by virtue of me being female. He owes me nothing. I owe him, in fact, to prove that I am a good person (not a housewife, necessarily, and lord knows he's always told me to stay out of his kitchen - he loves to cook). It takes two to do all this. I'll never be a limp-wristed submissive little puppet for him, but conversely, I refuse to ever believe that he should give his affection, his hard work, his care and strong embrace, without me giving everything I can in return.

That being said, men have issues of their own. As one example, I often meet guys who feel entitled to the body of every chick they meet - so much that they get downright pissed if turned down, even by women who are taken. Men can turn into total manchildren too. All in all, I think men and women both have their respective issues. And both parties need to just start treating each other with basic mutual human respect. The world could use more of that.

Men don't understand women. However, women understand women.....that's why they all hate each other.

[RainbowDemonic]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Men don't understand women. However, women understand women.....that's why they all hate each other.

Honestly with hubby I took a lot of time to explain to him how women work, and he did the same for me. It's helped us a lot in our relationship, and by extension helped us understand the opposite sex a little better as well. He's blown my mind about just guys in general and how they work, and I've done the same for him, and I think it made us realize why some of our former relationships had broken down - we never understood some of those basics about the opposite gender.

Anyway, more on topic, fundamentalism bugs me primarily because it almost always perverts something beautiful into giving men ultimate power and women ultimate blame - with a whole all-consuming community of crazy cultists surrounding and keeping you from ever escaping (divorce is wrong, bla bla), should your husband decide you didn't cook a good enough meal for him today and he feels like smacking you around - because it's totally what like 50 of his buddies in the church do and they have, no joke, actual week-long conferences on how to deal with the police when accused of abuse and how to look like clean-cut, innocent and upstanding citizens. It's always rules and tyranny, no matter how much it pretends to be otherwise...and they are very good at pretending, and manipulating their wives/daughters/children to say that they're very happy being enslaved thankyouverymuch, no really, we're all very happy here, really! Been there, done that, got the ankle-length skirts, lol.

I do believe masculinity favors leadership and strength, and femininity favors nourishing, mothering, caring. How those traits can compliment each other within any given relationship is a very complicated thing. Fundamentalism has a set of rules, and often leads to abuse. The real thing is so much more beautiful, loving, free and balanced - yin and yang, as opposed to iron-fisted master and meek housewife.