Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

[Thothur]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

It may not go over well with some, but if one wants a weak and submissive woman, then a female adherent to one of the major religions is probably where they'll look first. Fear and shame are incredible motivators for some people. Especially when they are raised in such a system. I was raised Catholic. There wasn't a whole lot of talk about God's love, but there was plenty talk of his wrath if you didn't toe the line. And anytime you did something you weren't supposed to, and got unsavory results, then we were told God was 'punishing' us for not listening to our parents.

I remember one time, I was probably about 4 or 5 and I wanted to come down and help my mother with the laundry downstairs. For some reason she told me to stay upstairs as I was about halfway down the staircase. I meant to comply, but I was wearing socks, and one of my socks slipped and I fell down the stairs instead. Afterwards I was told that it was 'God's Punishment' for not listening.

Not directly related to the OP of course, but fear, shame, and manipulation are used unconsciously to control others. Most of the time, not even realizing that they're doing it. It's like a disease passed from one generation to the next who does things just because their own parents did the same thing. So on and so forth, rarely ever questioning why. That pretty much sums up Fundamentalism in a nutshell.

[Monster]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Honestly with hubby I took a lot of time to explain to him how women work, and he did the same for me. It's helped us a lot in our relationship, and by extension helped us understand the opposite sex a little better as well. He's blown my mind about just guys in general and how they work, and I've done the same for him, and I think it made us realize why some of our former relationships had broken down - we never understood some of those basics about the opposite gender.

Anyway, more on topic, fundamentalism bugs me primarily because it almost always perverts something beautiful into giving men ultimate power and women ultimate blame - with a whole all-consuming community of crazy cultists surrounding and keeping you from ever escaping (divorce is wrong, bla bla), should your husband decide you didn't cook a good enough meal for him today and he feels like smacking you around - because it's totally what like 50 of his buddies in the church do and they have, no joke, actual week-long conferences on how to deal with the police when accused of abuse and how to look like clean-cut, innocent and upstanding citizens. It's always rules and tyranny, no matter how much it pretends to be otherwise...and they are very good at pretending, and manipulating their wives/daughters/children to say that they're very happy being enslaved thankyouverymuch, no really, we're all very happy here, really! Been there, done that, got the ankle-length skirts, lol.

I do believe masculinity favors leadership and strength, and femininity favors nourishing, mothering, caring. How those traits can compliment each other within any given relationship is a very complicated thing. Fundamentalism has a set of rules, and often leads to abuse. The real thing is so much more beautiful, loving, free and balanced - yin and yang, as opposed to iron-fisted master and meek housewife.

Actually, I can't disagree with you here either. But at the end of the day, resentment is the acidic base of all relationships. And IMO, someone has to be the..........tie breaker. For me...its me. No matter how much you may communicate, there will come a time where a certain argument will drag on and on. That's not good for the relationship. Neither is giving in...because it causes resentment.

For me, its my job to make the decisions on whats best for me and mine. Although I value my significant other's input, the final say is mine alone. It also comes with the responsibility of saying "I was wrong" if for some reason it doesn't work out.

I don't see it as submission for the sake of submission. I see it as my duty to lead my family. I see it as a way to avoid ongoing arguments because nothing ever gets resolved. Agreeing to disagree never works. Because someone always winds up resenting the other one.

It may not be popular with the estrogen lynch mob, but it works for me. For too long women have been giving mixed signals to men and they don't know how to act anymore. Me? I act like a man is supposed to, yet I'm called sexist and misogynist. Hahaha.

But tell me this........how many women have you seen/heard lamenting about how they can't find a "real" man, who turn around and cream all over themselves reading 50 Shades of Gray.....who turn right back around and say "I'll never submit?" Suffice it to say, you've no idea the women in my life who profess to hate me for the very same reason they are attracted to me. I haven't turned into some popped collar, metrosexual pussy like the media and the feminist movement says men are supposed to be.

It galls me that every boyfriend/husband on prime time TV is portrayed as some bumbling buffoon who can't tie his shoes without his wife or girlfriend giving him instructions.

But, the mere fact that you've gotten what I've said gives me some hope that not all is lost. For me...I get tired of the battle of the sexes.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

All this is what makes me say extra prayers of thanks for my sovereignty!

[Malflick]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Actually, I can't disagree with you here either. But at the end of the day, resentment is the acidic base of all relationships. And IMO, someone has to be the..........tie breaker. For me...its me. No matter how much you may communicate, there will come a time where a certain argument will drag on and on. That's not good for the relationship. Neither is giving in...because it causes resentment.

For me, its my job to make the decisions on whats best for me and mine. Although I value my significant other's input, the final say is mine alone. It also comes with the responsibility of saying "I was wrong" if for some reason it doesn't work out.

I don't see it as submission for the sake of submission. I see it as my duty to lead my family. I see it as a way to avoid ongoing arguments because nothing ever gets resolved. Agreeing to disagree never works. Because someone always winds up resenting the other one.

It may not be popular with the estrogen lynch mob, but it works for me. For too long women have been giving mixed signals to men and they don't know how to act anymore. Me? I act like a man is supposed to, yet I'm called sexist and misogynist. Hahaha.

But tell me this........how many women have you seen/heard lamenting about how they can't find a "real" man, who turn around and cream all over themselves reading 50 Shades of Gray.....who turn right back around and say "I'll never submit?" Suffice it to say, you've no idea the women in my life who profess to hate me for the very same reason they are attracted to me. I haven't turned into some popped collar, metrosexual pussy like the media and the feminist movement says men are supposed to be.

It galls me that every boyfriend/husband on prime time TV is portrayed as some bumbling buffoon who can't tie his shoes without his wife or girlfriend giving him instructions.

But, the mere fact that you've gotten what I've said gives me some hope that not all is lost. For me...I get tired of the battle of the sexes.

I don't think that dominating another human being makes you a 'real man' or be acting 'like a man is supposed to'. Saying that you should be in control because it stops ongoing arguments just means you are stopping them from thinking, or at the least expressing their thinking. You are making an argument to shut up from authority and power, an argument that may not even be remotely correct, because it isn't a discussion, its an enforcement.

Problems can be solved without resorting to that, by communicating, by listening, by thinking about what the other person is saying rather than treating discussion like a war that has to be won or settled by fiat. Won't the person who is submitting resent the person who they are submitting to after a while?

And as for the women lamenting they couldn't find someone to abuse them like in 50 Shades, yeah, I've met people who've lamented that, and every single one who has gotten into that sort of relationship has then regretted it.

This isn't popular with the "estrogen lynch mob", a group of thinking, intelligent people who ask questions, and don't submit just because someone isn't strong enough to accept that another person could legitimately be their equal, a group who doesn't need another person to be weak from them to feel strong, a group who includes a lot of men, who stand up for what they believe in, who seem to in fact have quite a bit of testosterone. I am a feminist, and I'm proud to be one. Nor do I think the word "pussy" is an insult. Its not a weak organ you know...

Every single relationship for me where there was a power imbalance ended badly, with resentment, and the ones where we were equals, quite the opposite, so I can't say I follow that line of reasoning at all.

Women and men don't have to be in constant conflict, we weren't born destined to just bat at each other like animals. We're humans, we have self control, choices, and both men and women can be strong and can get along just fine without submitting for the sake of peace. People can be better than that.

[iflewoverthecuckoosnest]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

I don't think that dominating another human being makes you a 'real man' or be acting 'like a man is supposed to'. Saying that you should be in control because it stops ongoing arguments just means you are stopping them from thinking, or at the least expressing their thinking. You are making an argument to shut up from authority and power, an argument that may not even be remotely correct, because it isn't a discussion, its an enforcement.

Problems can be solved without resorting to that, by communicating, by listening, by thinking about what the other person is saying rather than treating discussion like a war that has to be won or settled by fiat. Won't the person who is submitting resent the person who they are submitting to after a while?

And as for the women lamenting they couldn't find someone to abuse them like in 50 Shades, yeah, I've met people who've lamented that, and every single one who has gotten into that sort of relationship has then regretted it.

This isn't popular with the "estrogen lynch mob", a group of thinking, intelligent people who ask questions, and don't submit just because someone isn't strong enough to accept that another person could legitimately be their equal, a group who doesn't need another person to be weak from them to feel strong, a group who includes a lot of men, who stand up for what they believe in, who seem to in fact have quite a bit of testosterone. I am a feminist, and I'm proud to be one. Nor do I think the word "pussy" is an insult. Its not a weak organ you know...

Every single relationship for me where there was a power imbalance ended badly, with resentment, and the ones where we were equals, quite the opposite, so I can't say I follow that line of reasoning at all.

Women and men don't have to be in constant conflict, we weren't born destined to just bat at each other like animals. We're humans, we have self control, choices, and both men and women can be strong and can get along just fine without submitting for the sake of peace. People can be better than that.

Absolutely, Mal. Some women may think that they want to be controlled by some domineering Christian Grey or Edward Cullen type of alpha male, but the reality of those situations are never truly satisfying or healthy. My first relationship was with just such a man, and I am still emotionally scarred from the experience. Why? Because when those dynamics of control and submission translate into the real world, they are abusive and degrading.
Sure, every relationship has one partner who tends to be more "in control" and one who tends to follow, but that's very different than one partner who is "controlling" and one who is continually manipulated into obeying.

[Gardenia]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Problems can be solved without resorting to that, by communicating, by listening, by thinking about what the other person is saying rather than treating discussion like a war that has to be won or settled by fiat. Won't the person who is submitting resent the person who they are submitting to after a while?

I agree. I can only speak for myself, of course, but if my SO felt he got to have the final say on everything simply because he's a man? Yeah, I would resent that quite a bit. There's no way I'd be happy in that sort of relationship for very long. My SO and I see each other as equal, and we've always been able to work through our problems and disagreements with actual communication, and equal compromise when necessary. I don't think any less of him, or see him as any less of a man because of that. On the other hand, I think I would think less of someone who thought I had to submit, or whatever else. If it works for some people, great, but that's just not the sort of relationship I could see myself being happy in.

[Poshi]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

I get tired of the battle of the sexes.

Attitudes geared towards inequality in relationships between men and women (whether romantic or not) are causing this battle. Not every woman is fighting to have control, we are fighting to be treated like we mean something too. We are fighting to be treated like our say in the matter is relevant, and the people who are holding back that fight are people who act like one sex is meant to be more powerful than the other. Are we different? Hell yes. Men and women are very different in a lot of ways. But don't define anyone's life for them. Why can't we have the attitude of getting to know people for being people. Some women are going to want to be in a relationship where they get to do things that are more traditionally considered woman's work. Some women want to stay home and raise kids, or cook every night. Others say, "To hell with that!" and have other goals for their lives. It isn't my job or your job or anyone's job to decide what is right for that person. You know what's right for you and that's awesome. But it shouldn't be about assigning someone or every man or woman having to fit their role. We're all just people, dammit.

[Medusa]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Humans are to be loved, not dominated.

[Shahaku]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

I generally agree with Monster and that crowd at this point. I would like to add, when it comes to the question of who has the final say, I think it is important that one person have this power (I don't really care if it's the man or woman, but once again, I think there is value in traditional relationships). There are decisions that can be talked into the ground with benefits and drawbacks on each side that a couple can disagree on. Without intelligence conversation, or listening to what they have to say, the power of final say would become something to resent. However, assuming that there is open, intelligent communication, someone has to make a decision, even when there isn't consensus. I don't think that in a relationship between two relatively equal, intelligent people, it would come to this very often, but when it does, one person needs to have the authority to make the decision.

An example? (I really don't care about your particular opinion on the topic, its just an example) My hubby and I have had an ongoing discussion about circumcision. I really don't want to do it if we have a boy. He has really wants to. We had an open, honest discussion on it, in which I shared my reasoning and he shared his. This conversation took place over a long period of time, because it was a hot topic for both of us and we just had to set it aside quite often to calm down. In the end, because we couldn't agree, I left it up to him on a final note that at the very least I would like to wait until they are old enough to decide for themselves. I'm satisfied that he is well-informed now and capable of making that decision. And quite honestly, I was tired of arguing about it. Will I resent him if he says go ahead and do it if we have a boy, when the baby gets here? No. Absolutely not. It's his decision. I might not agree, but I've had my say, I'm satisfied that he listened and considered it, and that's the end of it.

[Medusa]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Do you know what happens to a woman who has a decision made for her? She grows to resent a man.
A smart man will make a decision based on what the woman needs. If not, he will never get his needs met. Woman are not meant to be controlled, dominated, deemed to submit. It makes women really f ing testy.

[wisp]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

I'm a little disgusted by the perpetuating of the idea that women are all terrible and can't have meaningful relationships (friendships) with each other. It's demeaning. But I know a large number of lovely women. Do they drive me nuts sometimes? Yes. But so do my male friends. Can some women be catty? Yes. But so can men. These are not gendered traits, but they are traits that society has decided belong to certain genders and it perpetuates the idea that women are children trapped in adult bodies, that they need to be controlled and protected because they don't know better.

I am also going to point out that nurture is a huge part of development as human beings and if you look at how most media shows women, especially women who are deemed 'desirable', is it any wonder they turn out that way? It's what we're told we have to be, or that it's the only way we can be happy or we just expect other women to be that way so we react before hand. We, as society, create these creatures, not our chromosomes.

I am sorry if there are women who don't have good relationships with other women. It doesn't mean that they don't exist or even that that's the norm.

I know this was all off topic, but a lot of the arguments in this conversation that refer to control seem to be saying that women are the ones at fault no matter what, and that's not only a bit perposterous but leads the way for victim blaming and so on.

There are examples even in nature where the females are the 'alphas'. It is not a gender thing.

I am not against traditional roles, per se. I also don't think that being equal means never being challenged. I think it means exactly what it says. Being equal. Sure, there are times when my husband leads, because sometimes he knows more about a situation or is better at a task, and sometimes I lead for the same reasons. This is not 'controlling' a relationship. This is using your assets together and working together and supporting one another.

[Shahaku]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

I'd be a lot more p/o'd if my hubby went behind my back on something because we couldn't agree than I would for him making a decision upfront that I didn't agree with. And besides, we can't always get our way. Otherwise, the men begin to resent and then there is the same problem. And I honestly believe, if there is honest, rational communication between people, 95% of the time a consensus can be reached. It's the other 5% that I say someone needs to be in charge of the final say.

Also, this wouldn't be every decision, but the big ones that you both have a say in. What I wear? That's my business. What kind of car I get? So long as I'm not trying to get something way outside of budget, that's on me. Who I'm friends with? Me. How I behave? Me. Which house to buy? Where to settle down? Finance's? How to raise the children? Both. And if you don't have a similar philosophy on how to hand these things, I doubt the relationship would work. If there's an argument on something, and it falls into the 5%, it's better to have it settled in the long run.

[iflewoverthecuckoosnest]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Attitudes geared towards inequality in relationships between men and women (whether romantic or not) are causing this battle. Not every woman is fighting to have control, we are fighting to be treated like we mean something too. We are fighting to be treated like our say in the matter is relevant, and the people who are holding back that fight are people who act like one sex is meant to be more powerful than the other. Are we different? Hell yes. Men and women are very different in a lot of ways. But don't define anyone's life for them. Why can't we have the attitude of getting to know people for being people. Some women are going to want to be in a relationship where they get to do things that are more traditionally considered woman's work. Some women want to stay home and raise kids, or cook every night. Others say, "To hell with that!" and have other goals for their lives. It isn't my job or your job or anyone's job to decide what is right for that person. You know what's right for you and that's awesome. But it shouldn't be about assigning someone or every man or woman having to fit their role. We're all just people, dammit.

People are people, not just genders. Exactly.

[MoonRaven]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Men don't understand women. However, women understand women.....that's why they all hate each other.

I understand women but I don't hate them which makes me what, an aubergine? (N.B. This is an attempt of humour for those who can't tell)

There will always be one more in control than the other. If its same sex, then the control will fall with the alpha type. There is always one partner more submissive than the other. In this case gender isn't as much of an issue.

In some cases yes you will find same sex relationships where one will be far more dominant than the other, but in my experience, as well as the few studies I have read on the matter, the 'alpha' role in same sex relationships of shifts around depending on the situation. Yes there will usually be a 'leader', but it isn't, at least not necessarily so, the same person all the time.

But tell me this........how many women have you seen/heard lamenting about how they can't find a "real" man, who turn around and cream all over themselves reading 50 Shades of Gray.....who turn right back around and say "I'll never submit?" Suffice it to say, you've no idea the women in my life who profess to hate me for the very same reason they are attracted to me. I haven't turned into some popped collar, metrosexual pussy like the media and the feminist movement says men are supposed to be.

Personally I couldn't tell you why women read this, you'd be hard pressed to pay me enough to do so, but one should never confuse a sexual fantasy with what a person, man or woman, wants from a relationship as a whole.

It may not be popular with the estrogen lynch mob, but it works for me. For too long women have been giving mixed signals to men and they don't know how to act anymore. Me? I act like a man is supposed to, yet I'm called sexist and misogynist. Hahaha

As long as you only apply this to your own relationships and don't try to force it onto mine, and the woman you're with is happy with it as well I have absolutely no problem with it. If it makes both of you happy, bully for you both.

...Some women may think that they want to be controlled by some domineering Christian Grey or Edward Cullen type of alpha male...

Edward Cullen is dominant? :=S: I need to go back and re-read those books (N.B. Another inept attempt of humour)

I'm a little disgusted by the perpetuating of the idea that women are all terrible and can't have meaningful relationships (friendships) with each other. It's demeaning. But I know a large number of lovely women. Do they drive me nuts sometimes? Yes. But so do my male friends. Can some women be catty? Yes. But so can men. These are not gendered traits, but they are traits that society has decided belong to certain genders and it perpetuates the idea that women are children trapped in adult bodies, that they need to be controlled and protected because they don't know better.

I meant to say something like this, but wisp already beat me to it.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Being a Godly Wife. Your thoughts?

Actually, I can't disagree with you here either. But at the end of the day, resentment is the acidic base of all relationships. And IMO, someone has to be the..........tie breaker. For me...its me. No matter how much you may communicate, there will come a time where a certain argument will drag on and on. That's not good for the relationship. Neither is giving in...because it causes resentment.

For me, its my job to make the decisions on whats best for me and mine. Although I value my significant other's input, the final say is mine alone. It also comes with the responsibility of saying "I was wrong" if for some reason it doesn't work out.

I don't see it as submission for the sake of submission. I see it as my duty to lead my family. I see it as a way to avoid ongoing arguments because nothing ever gets resolved. Agreeing to disagree never works. Because someone always winds up resenting the other one.

It may not be popular with the estrogen lynch mob, but it works for me. For too long women have been giving mixed signals to men and they don't know how to act anymore. Me? I act like a man is supposed to, yet I'm called sexist and misogynist. Hahaha.

But tell me this........how many women have you seen/heard lamenting about how they can't find a "real" man, who turn around and cream all over themselves reading 50 Shades of Gray.....who turn right back around and say "I'll never submit?" Suffice it to say, you've no idea the women in my life who profess to hate me for the very same reason they are attracted to me. I haven't turned into some popped collar, metrosexual pussy like the media and the feminist movement says men are supposed to be.

It galls me that every boyfriend/husband on prime time TV is portrayed as some bumbling buffoon who can't tie his shoes without his wife or girlfriend giving him instructions.

But, the mere fact that you've gotten what I've said gives me some hope that not all is lost. For me...I get tired of the battle of the sexes.

I am really sorry to read that you feel like resentment is at the base of all relationships. I, personally could not stay in a relationship where I resented or was resented by my partner. That said, I do see a few of your points. I like things in a modicum myself, but anything taken to an extreme bothers me, that includes feminism and well for lack of a better term, anti-feminism. I don't watch prime time TV so don't be surprised if I make 0 refrences to it or the media. aside from the fact that (off topic) I have read 50 shades of grey, and sexual submission!=relationship submission, and throughout most of the book, she was fighting any type of submission.

But moving on, I will admit extreeme feminism is bad. My mother in-law is an extreme feminist, and frankly there are some life skills the he did not have, because she was a controlling influence, and never taught her sons (yep all boy-children) she just did for them. So I see where you could be worried about men being unable to fend for themselves but my husband is also a strong personality, and is very capable of being absolutely obstinate for the sake of being right, no matter how rediculous the argument, (me too, makes for some absolutely insane argument points.) The problem is that sometimes being the tie breaker would be actively detrimental if it were always my husband. On an opposing note My mother was in the opposite type of relationship, she did not have the life skills to live on her own because she was a girl and not taught them, she did not need them, she would have a man to take care of her. It came to the point where she had a man, but he failed in his duty to take care of her, and she was unable for a long time to rectify the situation. When it finally came to the point that she was able to finally leave what was in fact a very bad situation, she had finally developed the ability to care for her family, but she learned it under the worst possible circumstances, with a very tiny me watching everything. So my mother taught me to be self-sufficient, it was important thatI could care for myself, that I would not need a man to do it for me. Where my husband's mother and father was doing his taxes for him up until the day we got married, I was shown to do my own when I started working at 15.

All I am saying is that balance matters. It makes sense for you to be the deciding factor on matters where protecting your family is concerned, but it is not the best thing for everybody, it can't be. Some people have strengths which make them better prepared to do finances, or keep their home safe, or cook dinner, or decide which school is best for the children to attend. Make it a partnership, I am not sayiing that half the time the wife decides something and half the time the husband does. I am saying everyone should do what they are good at, and frankly that doesn't always fall down gender lines.

This is just the opinion of a former Military police woman married to a Pastry chef. We both did what we are good at.