Communism!

[DanieMarie]

Re: Communism!

Well, you don't know oppression until you've lived in East Germany (or somewhere like it). Trust me. I didn't grow up there, but I live in former East Berlin and my boyfriend and a good chunk of my friends are East Berliners or East Germans. I've heard enough family stories to turn me off of the idea of going totally communist. I'm all for the social state and everything that goes with it, but I'm also for compromises and some level of competition in business (though, the degree we have now is totally dangerous, which is something for another topic).

Although I am aware that communism has never been practiced as it was imagined by Marx et al, there is a reason for that. You can't totally start a country from scratch. It doesn't work that way. Communist countries have always sprung out of revolutions or wars, because the people in positions of power do not give up those positions easily. When you get a situation like that, there is always some sort of period of extreme instability that calls for some group of people to take power to return the stability that was lost, hence why you get dictatorships. On top of that, these have always been countries or regions that existed within previous borders, and you can't control an area that large without some kind of central leadership (even Cuba is too large for that). Democratic socialism is definitely an alternative and a good way to get to a socialist state without revolution and instability, but there are several differences between that and communism.

[Briton]

Re: Communism!

For students and stay at home mums who don't NEED work, zero hours contexts are very helpful, it provides then with an opportunity to earn some money without committing to anything in particular. The problem we have is when businesses only take on part time staff (get out of giving benefits) so nobody is really committed to the job and you end up with a company like Currys or WH Smiths where none of the employees seem to know anything, largely because they're all 17 year old girls who can get paid a lower minimum wage and provide the barmaid effect.

[Taulmaril]

Re: Communism!

How do you figure that the 90% are the owners of wealth? It is the business owners who put up the capital for the business not the people that work for them. Now if the workers want to invest as much as the owners then by all means they should be able to share in the profits. Here is a simple question for you; if I invest 100,000 dollars in a business adventure and you invest 10,000 dollars in my adventure, how much return should we each get?

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"The reason I have a problem with the rich getting richer is that it is almost always done on the backs of the poor."

Perhaps in some instances you are right. Now let's go ahead and shut that multi billion dollar company that employs thousands of people down and see where they are. Those people are now unemployed where they probably would have been prior to going to work for the multi-billion dollar company. I look at it this way; 11.50 and hour is better than 0.00 per hour. Yes it is true that billionaires need workers and that those workers make less than the owners but at the same time it is the capital of the owners that is keeping that company afloat. If they go belly up the workers go unemployed. Losing a job is a lot easier than losing everything.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Communism!

For students and stay at home mums who don't NEED work, zero hours contexts are very helpful, it provides then with an opportunity to earn some money without committing to anything in particular. The problem we have is when businesses only take on part time staff (get out of giving benefits) so nobody is really committed to the job and you end up with a company like Currys or WH Smiths where none of the employees seem to know anything, largely because they're all 17 year old girls who can get paid a lower minimum wage and provide the barmaid effect.

I'd argue that they're not even all that helpful for those groups, because you never have any real notice of how much you'll be working at a given time. Students need pretty regular hours so that they can co-ordinate their shifts with classes and homework and stuff. Stay-at-home moms need to work around their kids' schedules and need to arrange child care and such, so having a regular work schedule is really helpful. I'd also argue that both of those groups have plenty of people who need to work. At 9,000 pounds per year, tuition in the UK is pretty expensive (and don't even get me started on the US). University is free in Germany, but there are still those pesky living costs to take care of, and it's not always easy to get into university at home (the unis in big cities are difficult to get into, and a lot of smaller towns don't have universities). It's pretty hard to raise a family on a single income, which is why many stay-at-home moms take on part-time jobs.

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How do you figure that the 90% are the owners of wealth? It is the business owners who put up the capital for the business not the people that work for them. Now if the workers want to invest as much as the owners then by all means they should be able to share in the profits. Here is a simple question for you; if I invest 100,000 dollars in a business adventure and you invest 10,000 dollars in my adventure, how much return should we each get?

And where, pray tell, would those business owners be without employees? Unless they can plan, manufacture, market, and sell their product alone during all operating hours, nowhere. Business owners may invest their capital in a business, but employees invest their time, energy, and talents. They deserve to be fairly compensated for their role in the success of the business.

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Perhaps in some instances you are right. Now let's go ahead and shut that multi billion dollar company that employs thousands of people down and see where they are. Those people are now unemployed where they probably would have been prior to going to work for the multi-billion dollar company. I look at it this way; 11.50 and hour is better than 0.00 per hour. Yes it is true that billionaires need workers and that those workers make less than the owners but at the same time it is the capital of the owners that is keeping that company afloat. If they go belly up the workers go unemployed. Losing a job is a lot easier than losing everything.

$1.50 per hour is also better than $0.00 per hour. That doesn't mean that it's a fair wage.

[anunitu]

Re: Communism!

There never has been a "Fair and just" system of Government,ever. In the way back,the Church "appointed" the "royal blood" to keep the lesser people in line,and pretty much gave the Kings and queens absolute power over the "Great unwashed".
Though now where we seem to have a democracy,in fact the VERY rich act and do,a lot like those way back royals.
Mostly they never see justice for their crimes,because the system seems unable to ever convict them even in the face of evidence of crimes they commit.

People speak of the rich never being punished,but the system does in fact protect them.

[Taulmaril]

Re: Communism!

While there are unscrupulous companies out there that get away with a lot, there are many others who are providing a service to those in need such as a JOB. Jobs are important and I agree that workers are part of what makes an economy. But likewise a business man makes an economy for without said business man, workers have no jobs. If a group of workers want to go out and invest their money equally for a business venture then they should. But to vilify all wealthy people is ignorant at best.

[anunitu]

Re: Communism!

There is a long standing mistrust of the "Rich",by the common people,and there is a reason it has persisted over time.
Though it may seem by some that it is not warranted,Common people have a LONG memory when it comes to the rich...

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Communism!

I am far from ignorant. The cemetery across the road from me is full of miners who lie there because they needed a JOB. It's a bloody job, not the Holy Grail. And they died because businessmen - who would eventually become extremely wealthy and respected - cut corners on safety in their pursuit of profits.
They often still do.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Communism!

While there are unscrupulous companies out there that get away with a lot, there are many others who are providing a service to those in need such as a JOB. Jobs are important and I agree that workers are part of what makes an economy. But likewise a business man makes an economy for without said business man, workers have no jobs. If a group of workers want to go out and invest their money equally for a business venture then they should. But to vilify all wealthy people is ignorant at best.

Of course it's ignorant to vilify all wealthy people. There are plenty of kind, generous wealthy people out there who earned money ethically. HOWEVER, I've also lived in this world long enough and have had enough experience with various socio-economic groups (from dirt poor to upper middle class...I'll admit that I don't know any multi-millionaires) to know that it's not just hard work that gets people to the top. Privilege plays a huge role in so many cases. I can even see it in my own life. I work as a writer, which is by no means a high paid job, but it's definitely a career that's hard to get into. When I was starting out, my parents supported me financially, which let me develop a portfolio, make pitches, and build up my skills until I had established myself enough to earn a living on my own. They also paid for 6 years of university (well, scholarships paid the tuition for the first year), which was also extremely helpful. It might have been possible if I came from a less privileged background, but definitely less likely. If I had to work full time while I was trying to establish myself, it would have taken me a lot longer to get to where I am, if I managed to get there at all.

When it comes to earning money, time, place, and sheer luck can also play their parts. Some regions don't have the same earning power as others, and not everyone has the ability or the resources to up and move. You also need to be looking when someone is looking for you, which doesn't always happen. Sometimes, people end up in the workforce during a downturn, which can affect the rest of their careers.

Some jobs just aren't paid all that high, even though they contribute important things to society. People who usually take the compensation argument are quick to argue what business owners and CEOs contribute, but they ignore the contributions made by other important groups in society. What about the firefighters, teachers, nurses, and police officers? What about the professors, who are paid pretty terribly for the amount of education, talent, and work their position requires? What about the scientists who research important medical advances, or the ones who develop the technology that business owners commercialize (researchers are paid much, much lower than business executives)? What about the creative workers who spend hours on hours making the background music, CGI effects, and scripts of your favourite movies and shows (also fairly low paid jobs in a lot of cases, or average at best)?

It takes all kinds of people to make a society, and all kinds of people to run a business. That's why things such as minimum wage and progressive taxation are so important. They recognize that people are often not compensated for the amount they contribute, and they help even the playing field a little.

[Spiny Norman]

Re: Communism!

For students and stay at home mums who don't NEED work, zero hours contexts are very helpful, it provides then with an opportunity to earn some money without committing to anything in particular.

The problem is that zero-hours contracts are becoming the norm, putting more and more people in a very insecure position financially and giving employers all the power.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/10/rise-zero-hours-contracts

[anunitu]

Re: Communism!

I think about the East India company,and its world wide drug dealing. I think they might have coined the phrase "Its just good business" as why they did these things

Sauce

[Taulmaril]

Re: Communism!

"And where, pray tell, would those business owners be without employees? Unless they can plan, manufacture, market, and sell their product alone during all operating hours, nowhere. Business owners may invest their capital in a business, but employees invest their time, energy, and talents. They deserve to be fairly compensated for their role in the success of the business."

I agree they do deserve to be fairly compensated. I have never said otherwise. However without the business they have no job.

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I am far from ignorant. The cemetery across the road from me is full of miners who lie there because they needed a JOB. It's a bloody job, not the Holy Grail. And they died because businessmen - who would eventually become extremely wealthy and respected - cut corners on safety in their pursuit of profits.
They often still do.

As I said there are some unscrupulous companies out there. There are many who will skirt the law and many who seem to have the law on their side. For that unfortunately things will probably never change. It is a great tragedy to be sure. But again, not all wealthy people are in that class and should not be vilified as such. As I said, to do so is ignorance at best.

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"What about the creative workers who spend hours on hours making the background music, CGI effects, and scripts of your favourite movies and shows (also fairly low paid jobs in a lot of cases, or average at best)?"

Well I happen to know first hand that this is not quite correct. Both of my sons have gone to school for audio engineering and they both understand that they can make a great deal of money in producing music and such. It does take someone in the business for the most part to get a job in this field even after going to school for it. My older boy just accepted a job at a studio in Utah and is looking at a six figure income in the next year, two at worst.

"It takes all kinds of people to make a society, and all kinds of people to run a business. That's why things such as minimum wage and progressive taxation are so important. They recognize that people are often not compensated for the amount they contribute, and they help even the playing field a little."

It does take all kinds to run a business. With that said, if I invest a million dollars into an enterprise and you come to work for me for 20 dollars an hour, should you still be able to reap the benefits of my capital that I placed in the business? Are you saying then that wealth redistribution is ethical?

[DanieMarie]

Re: Communism!

It does take all kinds to run a business. With that said, if I invest a million dollars into an enterprise and you come to work for me for 20 dollars an hour, should you still be able to reap the benefits of my capital that I placed in the business? Are you saying then that wealth redistribution is ethical?

Again, that business would be absolutely nowhere without employees, regardless of how many millions you invest. And yes, I'm saying wealth redistribution is ethical. I know plenty of people earning six-figure incomes who do as well. Obviously I don't expect wealth to be completely equally distributed, but I wholeheartedly support a progressive taxation system as we have in Canada (where I am a citizen) and Germany (where I am also a citizen). To be honest, the unequal tax system and lack of social systems is why I'd never dream of living in the US.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Communism!

It does take all kinds to run a business. With that said, if I invest a million dollars into an enterprise and you come to work for me for 20 dollars an hour, should you still be able to reap the benefits of my capital that I placed in the business? Are you saying then that wealth redistribution is ethical?

It might help if this mythical company paid its fair share in taxes for a start.

[Taulmaril]

Re: Communism!

Well more power to you. I for one thank the Gods that I live in the USA where we don't have such taxation. A place where, in theory, I have the ability to make my life as good as I want it to be with my own two hands. Wealth redistribution is a fallacy and thank the Gods it is. And without capital employees work at McDonalds for the rest of their lives with no nominal expectation to move up.

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"It might help if this mythical company paid its fair share in taxes for a start."

What would you say is "fair share" in taxes for my million dollar company? 50% sound good to you? Has anyone ever wondered why so many companies from the US relocate to countries with lower tax rates? It makes sense to me that they do this in order to maximize their profits. Why do people go into business in the first place? It is to make money. That is the bottom line. With that said there are many companies who do indeed make money and treat their employees well and to those companies I say good on them.