Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

[Gallifrey]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

I think it's really silly that people keep saying things like "sexist" and "unfair".

Sorry, but since when was the world not male-dominated? One facet of life not totally immersed in wiener-worshipping and people lose their minds. I think it's quite fair, however fairness and equal speaking time for the goddess and the god is so impossible to comprehend to some that by comparison it's 100% ladycentric. Sad.

And btw, you can't be sexist towards men. Sexism=prejudice+opression. You can't oppress men based on them being men. No matter what, men will still be the dominant sex, they will still have male privilege and enjoy the perks of not being born female in a man's world.

Some small groups of paganism and neopaganism are strictlychick-centered. I would say the vast majority are not.

Boo hoo, sad privileged boy tears.

Really? Okay. Why is it okay for women to wear jeans, but if a man wears a skirt, he's an outcast? Why is it that it's okay to have, for example, prominent women-only colleges, but if there were any men-only colleges left they'd get fried for being "sexist"? Why is it that we can rationalize this by saying "women don't have equal standing" when we have women occupying some of the highest offices in America?

I've been on both sides of the fence, you know. I find it equally disconcerting and ridiculous when men are excluded as when women are. That IS sexism. It's the definition of sexism.

[Dumuzi]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

This would be an interesting discussion if we removed the words women and men, and used black and white instead!

[JamesByrne]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Boo hoo, sad privileged boy tears.

So Im less of a man because I complain when Im descriminated against? Right. The only reason anyone will allow you to act the way you did in your post is if they think you need the leeway because youre a weak little girl.

I believe in gender equality that means I expect adult behavior from adults regardless of their gender. That means if you behave like a child Im not going to allow you to stamp your feet and throw a temper tantrum because you find life unfair. Just_Wondering Im not your daddy you need to progress your archetypal male image passed your home life and childhood.

And like Dennis Leary said "lifes tough get a helmet".

[Ula]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Quite possibly within Wicca and some versions of Celtic Neopaganism; those guys have always struck me as being somewhat pussy-whipped.:lookingdown:

One of the many reasons I prefer Germanic/Norse Paganism. Odin and Thor are the ultimate Alpha Males, and we keep our women where they belong - pregnant and in the kitchen!












(I keed!)

When you read Germania by Tacitus you find that the women received the dowry, got the keys to the home and ran all the affairs of the family. He thought this was crazy giving women that kind of role. I have found their one man, one wife marriage and views on adultery very women friendly. There are also very many strong, faithful goddesses and in PA Dutch Urglaawe Mother Holle is the most prominent of the gods. It's funny to me to think of Germanic paganism as not being an equal partnership. Guess it's good I don't get out much.

[Gardenia]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

This would be an interesting discussion if we removed the words women and men, and used black and white instead!

I think it's a fair, although not perfect, comparison in some ways. Men can experience prejudice, however men will never experience systematic sexism. The fact that a few women are doing well does not mean sexism isn't alive and well.

One easy way I've seen it explained is to think of it like a video game. Straight cis white male is the 'easy' difficulty setting. It's not saying you will never have difficulties, but you're often in a better place than say, lesbian trans black woman of the same financial class. I know, no one like the 'opression Olympics' wah I'm more oppressed than you, yes there's going to be exceptions, but if one can't even acknowledge the problems of say, sexism and racism, well...

As for, oh, well I can't wear jeans and people call me a little girl when I cry or whatever... Yeah. That would be a part of the whole traditional gender roles bit that goes hand in hand with systematic sexism. Don't like it? Strive to get rid of it, then. Know a good way to do that? Feminism. I know a lot of people (men and women, feminist and not) have warped ideas about feminism, but it's about equality of women with men.

[Ula]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

I think it's a fair, although not perfect, comparison in some ways. Men can experience prejudice, however men will never experience systematic sexism. The fact that a few women are doing well does not mean sexism isn't alive and well.

I think one area that is totally prejudical is family court. My father raised us after my parents divorce and she kicked us one one by one. He was never given the same respect as my mother in hearings and in money/the house. Granted it's one area but it effects the kids involved.

I don't know what women are not doing well means? Is this in relation to jobs, health, income?

[Gardenia]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Granted it's one area but it effects the kids involved.

Absolutely. Some states are better than others, but it is an issue for many. Again though, that really does go back to the whole traditional gender role bit (man makes the money, woman takes care of the kids), which as I said, is also harmful to men in some ways. In the US, this particular issue started before the creation of the feminist movement, and actually some areas of the feminism movement worked to get rid of this imbalance (it's better than it was in say, 1950). Being made up of people, feminism isn't exactly always the perfect movement, and there are some feminists who want to keep this imbalance... but, imo, if you want to get rid of those gender roles, you need to fix stuff like this, too.

I don't know what women are not doing well means? Is this in relation to jobs, health, income?

Do you think men and women are equal currently?

[Ula]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Do you think men and women are equal currently?

Not in all things. But in most Western countries we don't have it that bad and are making strides. I realize in other places women are at a huge disadvantage I just wondered if you were referring to specific things.

[Gallifrey]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

I think it's a fair, although not perfect, comparison in some ways. Men can experience prejudice, however men will never experience systematic sexism. The fact that a few women are doing well does not mean sexism isn't alive and well.

One easy way I've seen it explained is to think of it like a video game. Straight cis white male is the 'easy' difficulty setting. It's not saying you will never have difficulties, but you're often in a better place than say, lesbian trans black woman of the same financial class. I know, no one like the 'opression Olympics' wah I'm more oppressed than you, yes there's going to be exceptions, but if one can't even acknowledge the problems of say, sexism and racism, well...

As for, oh, well I can't wear jeans and people call me a little girl when I cry or whatever... Yeah. That would be a part of the whole traditional gender roles bit that goes hand in hand with systematic sexism. Don't like it? Strive to get rid of it, then. Know a good way to do that? Feminism. I know a lot of people (men and women, feminist and not) have warped ideas about feminism, but it's about equality of women with men.

I agree that it should be, but if only it actually was. And it isn't. Feminism is broken. 75% of feminists are actively digging the grave of equality.

[Denarius]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Sexism=prejudice+opression.

Wrong, sexism equals prejudice applied to sex. Male is a sex, in case you weren't aware.

No matter what, men will still be the dominant sex, they will still have male privilege and enjoy the perks of not being born female in a man's world.

Women tend to be better than men at communication, multitasking, relationships, and seeing the forest for the trees. These are all things that are becoming more important every day, in this world of tecnology men are becoming irrelevent.

Men could pretty much be replaced by a robot with a turkey baster. Female is the defult sex, cloning doesn't need a male, and you get fun bits to play with. <.< Men WERE the dominant sex... We only think we still are, and it's adorable really.

Really? Okay. Why is it okay for women to wear jeans, but if a man wears a skirt, he's an outcast?

Not a whole lot of men have the calves for it.

[Gallifrey]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Not a whole lot of men have the calves for it.

Who here is thinking "get me some of that"? Besides me? :P

[Gardenia]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Not in all things. But in most Western countries we don't have it that bad and are making strides. I realize in other places women are at a huge disadvantage I just wondered if you were referring to specific things.

We've certainly made progress, and are still continuing to do so, but I think we're still a ways off from a true equality. I only mentioned something specific in regards to paganism, since I didn't want to get too far off the original topic (although maybe it's too late for that :P).

75% of feminists are actively digging the grave of equality.

Yeah... I probably don't have to tell you how I feel about random internet statics with no sources or anything... Since I don't exactly have statics myself, I'll just say in my own personal experience that number would be WAY lower. I do not know many women, many feminists, who actively work to put women above men as a whole.

[Gallifrey]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

We've certainly made progress, and are still continuing to do so, but I think we're still a ways off from a true equality. I only mentioned something specific in regards to paganism, since I didn't want to get too far off the original topic (although maybe it's too late for that :P).





Yeah... I probably don't have to tell you how I feel about random internet statics with no sources or anything... Since I don't exactly have statics myself, I'll just say in my own personal experience that number would be WAY lower. I do not know many women, many feminists, who actively work to put women above men as a whole.

Oh, sorry, I thought it was going to be evident that it was a made-up number, heh. It's not a statistic at all (how would you do that kind of study anyway?). I didn't mean to claim it was, so I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I completely made it up. But that's my personal experience. The majority of people I know who self-identify as "feminists", either directly or indirectly through their actions, are actually working against true equality. I know quite a few people who literally believe that women are the better and more deserving sex. And from what I've seen, the higher up in the feminist heirarchy you go, the worse it gets.

[Gardenia]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Oh, sorry, I thought it was going to be evident that it was a made-up number, heh. It's not a statistic at all. But that's my personal experience. The majority of people I know who self-identify as "feminists", either directly or indirectly through their actions, are actually working against true equality.

Oh, no, I know it was made up. I'm just saying, it... doesn't really mean a whole lot outside of you. I won't say that hasn't been your experience, it may well be, but it doesn't really say much about the bigger picture, you know? I think it's also important to consider the whole 'squeaky wheel gets the grease' bit, where sometimes the louder more obnoxious section of any group seems bigger than it is, because they're the ones getting the attention.

I know quite a few people who actually believe that women are the better sex.

Yes, and soon the whole world will know how superior the women are! (We don't have any evil overlord emoticons, dang...)

- - - Updated - - -

Want to also add - to be clear, I feel the same about my own experiences there, not trying to single yours out as not meaning much or anything. I don't think either can really tell much on their own, and some people certainly do have worse experiences with any group than others.

[Simon Slade]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

I don't think you can ever say that it's okay to go towards one extreme because we've been at the other extreme. Yes, women have been treated unfairly throughout history. Does that mean men should be treated unfairly now? No.

We need to learn from past mistakes not take some sort of revenge.