Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

[Witcher]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Gardenia hit the nail on the head with the "squeaky wheel" analogy. To act like most feminists are sitting around reading Solanas' SCUM Manifesto and pricking voodoo dolls with penises is just ludicrous. Some of the largest movements that might identify with feminism include Planned Parenthood, NARAL, and various other groups focusing on women's health and equality. Radical feminism was a very small, and largely ignored group in the various waves of feminism. The first wave was about suffrage, the second about employment equality and reproductive rights and the third wave is about sexual liberation and media images of women along with working in race issues and issues of social class in feminism (I'm over-simplifying I know, but this is a forum not a symposium on women's studies).

Feminism is not man-hating. Gloria Steinem adored her partner who died tragically of lymphoma (I think it was lymphoma), Planned Parenthood and reproductive rights benefits both sexes and many of the goals of feminism are the same as the goals of humanism (a quote right from Steinem, the archetype of second-wave feminism).

The vast majority of the world's religions are incredibly male-centered. Even when female images are in a religion they tend to be not so empowering. The Virgin Mary is praised for being submissive to the will of God (think of the Canticle in Luke's Gospel) and for being ever-pure and untouched, at least in Catholic and Orthodox theology. The same denominations that value the Virgin Mary still have male-only priesthoods and the Vatican has released a statement that even though God is not corporeal he should still only be thought of as "Father" and never "Mother." Shakti Hinduism may celebrate the divine feminine but it is much smaller than the Saivite and Vaisnivite sects and sex discrimination is a huge issue in India. Orthodox Jewish males say a prayer every day that includes the words "Thank you God for not making me a gentile or a woman." So one small religious movement like contemporary Paganism and Wicca/witchcraft celebrate women in a central place and all of the sudden it's "Whoa whoa, this is crazy!" Puh-lease.

[Just_Wondering]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Lemme fix that for you..

WHITE MEN you mean.

Yeah that's why i put the part about opression just for being men. Men can be oppressed for being gay or a poc or anything else, but not for being a man.

[Witcher]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Yeah that's why i put the part about opression just for being men. Men can be oppressed for being gay or a poc or anything else, but not for being a man.

I think, with gay male discrimination, it's a bit deeper than that. Gay men seem to be removed from this equation because homophobia puts gay men outside of the man circle, if they're openly gay that is. If they're effeminate it's even more distinct. It's almost as if homophobic culture would say to an effeminate gay man (and being a queen myself I feel this a lot): "You're not even a man to begin with." It's similar, in a very small way of course, to how sterile women can be treated sometimes: as not really women.

[Just_Wondering]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

So Im less of a man because I complain when Im descriminated against? Right. The only reason anyone will allow you to act the way you did in your post is if they think you need the leeway because youre a weak little girl.

I believe in gender equality that means I expect adult behavior from adults regardless of their gender. That means if you behave like a child Im not going to allow you to stamp your feet and throw a temper tantrum because you find life unfair. Just_Wondering Im not your daddy you need to progress your archetypal male image passed your home life and childhood.

And like Dennis Leary said "lifes tough get a helmet".

I never said you were "less of a man" for anything. That's YOU assuming complaining is an inherently weak, female trait.

Then you told me i needed somebody to "allow me" to voice my opinion.

Then you said i can only get away with speaking my mind because i'm a "weak little girl".

Then you demean me and call me childish for pointing out gender inequality in females, yet it's okay and perfectly rational to point out "gender inequality" for men.

Then you pull out some bullcrap about my father and my childhood as though this has anything to do with anything.

You finish by telling me to effectively "get over" male privilege but are somehow totally okay with fighting the good fiht against the evil oppressive women.

Every word you typed was misogynistic. And i'm the one with the problem.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

I never said you were "less of a man" for anything. .

Ok so Just_wandering. Please tell me who you were adressing when you said "Boo hoo, sad privileged boy tears."

[Just_Wondering]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Ok so Just_wandering. Please tell me who you were adressing when you said "Boo hoo, sad privileged boy tears."

Sad privileged boys.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Sad privileged boys.

Would you elaborate on that a bit please Just_wondering?

[DrStrange]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Yeah that's why i put the part about opression just for being men. Men can be oppressed for being gay or a poc or anything else, but not for being a man.

Bovine excrement. In today's PC-obsessed world, a white, hetrosexual male is just about the only legitimate target left. Most large companies, as well as the public sector - police, civil service etc - have gender quotas and ruthlessly enforce them. Given the choice between employing a woman or a man of roughly equal ability, the woman will get the job nine times out of ten.

This has led to some horrendously bad judgement calls, especially in Britain's police force which has devolved from one of the finest law enforcement agencies in the world to become little more than the paramilitary wing of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. I can think of at least two senior female officers who's stunning incompetence cost the lives of innocent people, but who remain untouchable because of their gender.

I can only sign off by quoting the great Dr Kelso, "You ladies need to take a deep breath and have a group un-bunching of your panties.":devil:

[thalassa]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

As a woman that had to work twice as hard as any man to be taken serious in her job, because of BOTH the prejudices of men and the living down to the stereotype of some women...

...all-ya'll need to get off your high-horses and re-examine your own words before you start complaining about someone elses.

Because a good number of them sound like nothing short of more-persecuted-than-thou bitching and moaning about the opposite sex. And generally sounding bigoted doing it.

[orchestrion]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

The men in this thread are being a bit ridiculous...
"Two women messed up in the British police force so obviously men are oppressed".
And this has what to do with most religions being male centric? This has what to do with feminine themes in religion?
As someone whose parents are both former cops i won't even get into my issues with the assumption that female officers are somehow privileged.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Regarding the original question, sure certain Neo-Pagan groups may take Feminism to innappropriate levels. Humans do stupid things and Pagans (whether they admit or not) are human. Thing is though that Neo-Paganism encompasses such a diverse grouping that it'll also have sects that are the exact opposite along with at least ten other easily found extremes of human stupidity.

[Witcher]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Orchestrion is right. The thread was about feminism and gender issues within contemporary Paganism. Can you cite any examples of a mainstream Pagan movement actually excluding men outside of Budapest? I could name a litany of male writers and practitioners in countless paths and I could list a lot of paths with a heavy focus on male divinities. In what way is anyone, as a Pagan, being hurt or excluded by this assumed anti-male vibe? Any real examples outside of Dianics? I'd love to hear some specifics.

[JamesByrne]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

Orchestrion is right. The thread was about feminism and gender issues within contemporary Paganism. Can you cite any examples of a mainstream Pagan movement actually excluding men outside of Budapest? I could name a litany of male writers and practitioners in countless paths and I could list a lot of paths with a heavy focus on male divinities. In what way is anyone, as a Pagan, being hurt or excluded by this assumed anti-male vibe? Any real examples outside of Dianics? I'd love to hear some specifics.

If you want to offer citations for your opinions go ahead, I dont offer them for mine. I gave all the specifics I was willing to give in the first post. Any more then that I might offend people here and if I was invested enough in the topic to confront them Id do it instead of starting a topic on a forum for discussion.

[Witcher]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

If you want to offer citations for your opinions go ahead, I dont offer them for mine. I gave all the specifics I was willing to give in the first post. Any more then that I might offend people here and if I was invested enough in the topic to confront them Id do it instead of starting a topic on a forum for discussion.

I wasn't trying to be confrontational, it just sounds like what you're describing is anecdotal and not institutionalized in Paganism. It sounds like you had some bad experiences with a certain group.

[orchestrion]

Re: Within neopaganism does feminism exist at the expense of male neopagans?

In terms of the original question.
I think it's very simple.
Women practice EXTREMELY male oriented Abrahamic traditions and have for as long as these religions haave been around.
If men can't handle a few women having some power in a coven or the Goddess getting special attention
then maybe they should consider ducking out of Paganism.
Because I'm pretty sure a huge part of Paganism is the fact that there ISN'T one male deity at the center of everything.
And I dislike the statement that Wiccan men are "pussy-whipped" because we accept that women have some power in our religion.
And it's actually making me really uncomfortable seeing all this "BUT THE MENNNNN" whining.
I expected better from you guys.