Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

[nbdy]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

LMAO - there is a whole sub-genre of porn that involves women dressed like nuns engaging in some very unnun-like activities

Reportedly Ben Franklin participated in a group that did the Bishop-nun sex thing, but he was a freaky dude.

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I don't know if I am entitled to any opinion since our NFL team here is the Redskins ..... *sigh*

And so. I am trying to think of other cultural accoutrements that might have been employed, and it could have been worse. Imagine the hoopla if they'd done a sexy wahabi.

[thalassa]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

I have a sneaking suspicion Native American women have donned the sexy Native American look a time or two.

...a friend of mine has "hookered up" (her words, not mine) her pow wow outfit for Halloween before. She's also dressed up as a naughty nun (she also happens to be Catholic).

[Ophidia]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

It's empowering when you do it for yourself.

It's degrading when someone does it to you.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

What worries me in this issue is NOT the head dress or the supposed degrading of a culture (which honestly, that's really a stretch--shall we now go after elementary school pageants everywhere?) but the puritanical reaction to something that might be "sexualized" or "fetishized". Especially since both of these things are very much in the eye of the beholder. What YOU think is sexy or fetish wear may do nothing for me.

[AL!CE]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

I assume this fashion show took place im the USA because I doubt anyone would bat an eyelid if she had worn that in Paris or London.

[Medusa]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

So when I put on my glitter red devil ears I'm dishonoring my religion.
Except my religion demands I be naughty.

[AL!CE]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

devil ears?

[Medusa]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

devil ears?

Oops. Devil horns.
I'm a Satanist.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

I'm tempted to say it's a bit overdone - but then, I can understand where the native americans are coming from. Would Catholics get offended if VS published a 'sexy pope outfit', or would the pagan community get offended (not likely) if she came out wearing nothing but a pentacle and a robe?

I think they should realize (they being the angry folk) that it's just for fashion, and no disrespect was made, but I think the fashion industry too should be made more aware of things which could cause cultural strife.

We live (unfortunately) in a very PC age.

I agree. I think sometimes people need to think a bit more, but also the people who feel offended should think about it as well. Fashion tends to treat all cultures equally when it comes to sexing up a cultural "look"...I mean how often do you see sexy Asian-inspired looks or sexy tribal looks? All the time.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

It's empowering when you do it for yourself.

It's degrading when someone does it to you.

Perzephone, I have to ask this 'cause it feels to me like there is an elephant in the room...

I seem to remember that at one time you argued that a book, which described methods of seducing children, was harmless fantasy. More recently, I seem to recall that you argued that a man who wants to torture, kill, cook, and eat women is also engaging in harmless fantasy - as long as he does not carry out his plan.

In the case under discussion here, there is nobody urging harm on anybody (as is the case in the "How to Seduce a Child" book), nor do I see anything anywhere near as degrading and dehumanizing as fantasizing about the torture/murder/cooking/eating of women.

What am I missing? Why do Native Americans get singled out as people you're not allowed to fantasize about? Why are they a special case, when young children, and women who don't want to be tortured/murdered/cooked/eaten aren't?

[Ophidia]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

What worries me in this issue is NOT the head dress or the supposed degrading of a culture (which honestly, that's really a stretch--shall we now go after elementary school pageants everywhere?) but the puritanical reaction to something that might be "sexualized" or "fetishized". Especially since both of these things are very much in the eye of the beholder. What YOU think is sexy or fetish wear may do nothing for me.

I have no issues with naked people. I like being naked. I've been naked in public. We're born naked. I like sexy fun times. I have no problem with the general atmosphere of brands like Frederick's of Hollywood and Victoria's Secret - I used to shop at both places when I was less rotund.

I just think they picked a really bad cultural system to pull from and make into sexy runway wear. If they wanted something to sex up and associate with November, they probably would have been better off using pilgrim stuff. Or they could have done up a pioneer in her patchwork bloomers. Or a turkey. Sexualize a turkey - it doesn't hurt or make fun of anyone and the only people it pisses off is PETA. VS's marketing team just didn't make a wise or informed choice.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

I can think of nothing less sexy than a pilgrim, unless it's a turkey in a bikini...

[Ophidia]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

What worries me in this issue is NOT the head dress or the supposed degrading of a culture (which honestly, that's really a stretch--shall we now go after elementary school pageants everywhere?) but the puritanical reaction to something that might be "sexualized" or "fetishized". Especially since both of these things are very much in the eye of the beholder. What YOU think is sexy or fetish wear may do nothing for me.

I have no issues with naked people. I like being naked. I've been naked in public. We're born naked. I like sexy fun times. I have no problem with the general atmosphere of brands like Frederick's of Hollywood and Victoria's Secret - I used to shop at both places when I was less rotund.

I just think they picked a really bad cultural system to pull from and make into sexy runway wear. If they wanted something to sex up and associate with November, they probably would have been better off using pilgrim stuff. Or they could have done up a pioneer in her patchwork bloomers. Or a turkey. Sexualize a turkey - it doesn't hurt or make fun of anyone and the only people it pisses off is PETA. VS's marketing team just didn't make a wise or informed choice.

Perzephone, I have to ask this 'cause it feels to me like there is an elephant in the room...

I seem to remember that at one time you argued that a book, which described methods of seducing children, was harmless fantasy. More recently, I seem to recall that you argued that a man who wants to torture, kill, cook, and eat women is also engaging in harmless fantasy - as long as he does not carry out his plan.

In the case under discussion here, there is nobody urging harm on anybody (as is the case in the "How to Seduce a Child" book), nor do I see anything anywhere near as degrading and dehumanizing as fantasizing about the torture/murder/cooking/eating of women.

What am I missing? Why do Native Americans get singled out as people you're not allowed to fantasize about? Why are they a special case, when young children, and women who don't want to be tortured/murdered/cooked/eaten aren't?

For me it's a case of the generic vs the specific - and also the venue. And timing, and a few other things. And due to circumstances that have come up again and again in my life, I am sensitive to racism, racial exploitation and discrimination, whether it's implied or blatant. I get kind of shocked anymore when I see kids dressed up as 'Indians' for Hallowe'en. I get shocked when I see kids dressed up as any stereotyped racial/cultural group - I feel bad for them and judge their parents/guardians. If it hadn't been for that specific t.v. show I caught talking about how much harder it is for women on reservations to survive, and how often they face sexual assault and rape, and how unreported the problems are, I probably would be with the 'meh' crowd, not caring one way or other how tacky the Victoria's Secret choices were. It was like the Universe juxtaposed the awareness-building show with the VS show just to make me pay attention to an underlying theme.

I don't care about what anyone fantasizes about as long as they keep it to themselves. I've got some strange fantasies that I will never act out. Someone wants to fantasize about Pocahontas & Sacajawea, they can go for it. Someone wants to fantasize about eating Pochahontas & Sacajawea against their consent, they can go for it. A lot of people, men and women both, have fantasies involving kidnap, rape and torture. Fantasies aren't hurting anyone or making money off the pain of anyone else (unless you're a professional dom and your clients are into that...). Books, art and fantasies don't hurt people - stupid people hurt people. I'm against stupid human tricks.

And I fully admit it - sometimes I will join in on a topic even when I'm not emotionally invested in the subject, but want to look at the problem from different angles than those provided by my own somewhat narrow viewpoints, even if that means supporting the monsters.

**Sorry for the double post - I ran out of time to edit my last one and I don't know how to do the double-post merge thingy ***

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Heeeeyyyy, it automatically did the double post thingy!

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

I can think of nothing less sexy than a pilgrim, unless it's a turkey in a bikini...

Bam!
eh, I think she's hot...


I think you might be right about the turkey though

[AL!CE]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers



I love this film.