Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

[Moody Thursday]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

I find it very interesting that after No Doubt (Gwen Stefani) got heat for her latest video (in which she portrayed a Native American being tied up) and criticism, they went and did this. Something smells of "any press is good press, even bad press". It certainly put a huge spotlight on their new line of lingerie.

[Caelia]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

I find it very interesting that after No Doubt (Gwen Stefani) got heat for her latest video (in which she portrayed a Native American being tied up) and criticism, they went and did this. Something smells of "any press is good press, even bad press". It certainly put a huge spotlight on their new line of lingerie.

If you mean VS I'm certain it wasn't planned. Fashion shows take months to plan and much of that is devoted to designing and making clothes.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

just think they picked a really bad cultural system to pull from and make into sexy runway wear.

But all others are fair game?

By the way, you totally missed my point. You think it's "sexy runway wear". I don't. I found the headdress more aesthetically appealing then the lingerie.

- - - Updated - - -

I am sensitive to racism, racial exploitation and discrimination, whether it's implied or blatant.

Uh-huh.

I'm reminded of so called "wiccan" kids crying about discrimination and persecution because someone looked at their pentacle funny. They have never had a brick thrown through the window of their house. They've never had a beloved pet killed and left on their stoop. They have never has someone come after them with a baseball bat. But there they are, crying about how the world is against them.

Same with your claims here. Racism IS a real thing and it's damned ugly. It destroys lives. But you're getting your knickers in a twist about headdress in a lingerie fashion show. Not the same thing at all.

[DeadJellyfish]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

VS obviously used the headdress and "Native American" theme because they thought it was beautiful, not to make fun of Native Americans. Whoever composing her outfit was going for "art". They weren't trying to sell the public headdresses. They were trying to sell clothing that matched the style and culture of Native Americans. But now they have learned their mistake. I can see how it would be offensive to use the headdress as a tool to try an advertise something, considering what the headdress stands for.

[Moody Thursday]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

If you mean VS I'm certain it wasn't planned. Fashion shows take months to plan and much of that is devoted to designing and making clothes.

True. But they could've been more cautious after getting heat for their geisha-themed lingerie, which was around September. I'll try to post the link below. I personally don't care, and don't find it that offensive, but I'm just saying. If they apologized for the geisha one, they should've just learned from their mistake, or been unapologetic about it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/24/victorias-secret-geisha-outfit-photos_n_1909366.html

[Ophidia]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

Uh-huh.

I'm reminded of so called "wiccan" kids crying about discrimination and persecution because someone looked at their pentacle funny. They have never had a brick thrown through the window of their house. They've never had a beloved pet killed and left on their stoop. They have never has someone come after them with a baseball bat. But there they are, crying about how the world is against them.

Same with your claims here. Racism IS a real thing and it's damned ugly. It destroys lives.

Yes, racism destroys families, lives and people.

My mother kicked her my middle sister out of the house because she was pregnant with a black man's child. It didn't matter that the man in question was abusive, or my middle sister was 16, what mattered was the color of the man's skin. I grew up hearing words of hate launched towards my sisters and their kids my entire childhood. My father didn't get to meet his grandkids until they were teenagers and my mother was long dead. I spent two years in Tennessee with my mother's relatives after her death, seeing how the 'other side' lives - meaning the people who stood for segregation, discrimination and still felt resentful that black people were allowed to vote or own land. Some of my relatives are probably active KKK members. I've got cousins caught up in white supremacy groups.

Every time I made eye contact with a person who was not white, I felt like I wore this huge, stinking aura or a neon sign that said 'related to racists'. I couldn't invite kids who were any shade of 'not white' to my house, and if I made friends with any (which I did), I had to keep it on the lowdown. If one of my aunts or uncles saw me 'associating' with a person of darker skin tone my punishment was harsh. I don't know how I didn't end up exactly like most of my family because hatred was the only thing I heard until I was 15 & ended up living with my sisters and their kids. I broke off all contact with the majority of my family because I am ashamed of them. I'm embarrassed by them, and I'm embarrassed for them.

And now I'm stuck with in-laws who are also racists. I can't seem to get away from it. So yeah, it's personal and I'm kind of sensitive to it.

But all others are fair game?

For one, de Corbin was asking about this one particular instance, and article, so that's what I focused on. If there had been a laundry list of other cultural faux pas, I would have included them. I'm not trying to pass an essay exam here.

For the record, I was pretty appalled by Adidas' 'shackle shoes', too:

Shackle Shoes

There are so many ways to celebrate history or a culture and incorporate those elements into fashion, architecture, pageantry, media, etc. that are successful, beautiful and enhancing that it's amazing so many companies can make such bad choices in utilizing them.

[Caelia]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

True. But they could've been more cautious after getting heat for their geisha-themed lingerie, which was around September. I'll try to post the link below. I personally don't care, and don't find it that offensive, but I'm just saying. If they apologized for the geisha one, they should've just learned from their mistake, or been unapologetic about it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1909366.html

I agree they should have learned. However, I've learned that the fashion industry is collectively self-absorbed and may not fully understand how or why those choices aren't ok.

[Moody Thursday]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

I agree they should have learned. However, I've learned that the fashion industry is collectively self-absorbed and may not fully understand how or why those choices aren't ok.

No argument there.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

So yeah, it's personal and I'm kind of sensitive to it.

That's nice, but not only are you comparing apples to oranges, you're minimizing the reality of real examples of racism by getting in a tizzy over the use of a head dress in their show.

For the record, I was pretty appalled by Adidas' 'shackle shoes', too:

Shackle Shoes

*LAUGHS* Seriously? Wow, that's just....wow. You want to spent your energy complaining about that, go right ahead, but you're making position even more ridiculous. Frankly this goes in the "someone needs a hobby" category. Of all the problems in this world, this isn't even in the top 10,000.

[Caelia]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

That's nice, but not only are you comparing apples to oranges, you're minimizing the reality of real examples of racism by getting in a tizzy over the use of a head dress in their show.

Except that sometimes media portrayal actual perpetuates some notions and brings up current problems a community may be facing. It's not just "some headdress"; to some tribes it has a very certain meaning and significance and the misappropriation is another reminder that outsiders treat their culture as one for the taking. True, some members of those cultures have no qualms with this. Some evidently did in a significant number to warrant media attention.

That said, this is about why it's a big deal and perz and I tried to bring in some perspective of how we understood the issue since we're not members of those communities.

*LAUGHS* Seriously? Wow, that's just....wow. You want to spent your energy complaining about that, go right ahead, but you're making position even more ridiculous. Frankly this goes in the "someone needs a hobby" category. Of all the problems in this world, this isn't even in the top 10,000.

I think discussing issues that potentially affect others and maybe gain perspective on it isn't a case of "someone needs a hobby". It's about not being a jerk about another person's culture. It may not interest you, though I doubt it since you chose to post, it may be of interest to others.

With that said, I'm just going to bow out at this point from the thread. I've said my piece.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

I think discussing issues that potentially affect others and maybe gain perspective on it isn't a case of "someone needs a hobby". It's about not being a jerk about another person's culture. It may not interest you, though I doubt it since you chose to post, it may be of interest to others.

There's "being of interest" and then there is "being a soap box". People getting huffy because they THINKS a culture is being dissed is not intelligent discussion, and the only perspective it gives is up the one deciding to piss and moan.

If people want to talk about racism, why not talk about REAL cases? Someone losing their job because of it. Someone being beaten because of the colour of the skin. Someone being accused of a crime based solely on their ethnicity. And that doesn't even touch on the many examples of genocide to be found around the globe.

[Caelia]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

There's "being of interest" and then there is "being a soap box". People getting huffy because they THINKS a culture is being dissed is not intelligent discussion, and the only perspective it gives is up the one deciding to piss and moan.

If people want to talk about racism, why not talk about REAL cases? Someone losing their job because of it. Someone being beaten because of the colour of the skin. Someone being accused of a crime based solely on their ethnicity. And that doesn't even touch on the many examples of genocide to be found around the globe.

So discussing a topic about cultural appropriation and fashion isn't real discourse about a form of racism? It's just pissing and moaning?

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

So discussing a topic about cultural appropriation and fashion isn't real discourse about a form of racism? It's just pissing and moaning?

Not when it amounts to "because I don't like it".

[Caelia]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

Not when it amounts to "because I don't like it".

Good thing no one said that in the discussion.

[Vigdisdotter]

Re: Cultural insult? Semi-naked ladies and feathers

Good thing no one said that in the discussion.

That is what the arguments have amounted to.

And interestingly enough, even though I've pointed it out twice, people keep ignoring my point about what is "sexualized" and "fetishized" is in the eye of the beholder; that what offends one person isn't even a blip on the radar to another.