Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

[DanieMarie]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

Well, this thread has been interesting to read ^_^
On the topic of an all-women coven, I just wanted to add that I think you have to look at their reasons before making any judgments. Perhaps they are a skyclad coven. Then it could be an issue of simple modesty or even safety (especially if any of the members have ever been abused). Or maybe they just want to work with feminine energies sometimes, so they have that all-female coven. There's any number of reasons besides "we are being sexist and we hate men!"

Point taken

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I believe it is meant to be a Swastika, yes, but more in the lines of Indo-European religion, ie: The original symbol that Hitler copied.

That may well be, but one needs to understand that, since 1933, and ESPECIALLY in Europe, that symbol has become loaded with a whole new meaning and should be used with caution. Especially when you're a group big on "Aryan mythology and blood purity".

[AL!CE]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

The Swastika's earliest known origins lie in Pakistan and India. It is used in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. I don't think a group of white or mostly white people can use the swastika without being compared to Hitler and the Nazis. That might be racist in itself but it's understandable considering its history in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[DanieMarie]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

When you say 'We Europeans' of which ones are you talking about? You have a big chunk of the damned planet.

Also, living in Europe, I can tell you that cultures are extremely diverse. Even after the effects of modernization and technology and the disappearance of European folk cultures, which have made cultures more similar than in the past. This is part of the problems within the EU to be honest...the very VALUES of different countries can often be opposed to each other. Even within single countries, there are different cultures. In Italy you have places like Sardinia (an island with a very distinctive culture), Sisily, Tuscany...these places are all different from each other in very obvious ways. In Germany, you have a wide variety of dialects (which are sort of disappearing in young people, but they're still there as of now), and values can be vastly different between North and South (traditionally protestant and catholic respectively, though this is quickly turning into atheist and catholic). There are parts of Spain that want to separate (namely the Catalan region) and Scotland wants to become independent of the UK. And yes, while Europeans are generally white, there are a wide variety of ethnic groups within that. By "Europeans", who do you mean exactly (directed at Valhalla)?
It's funny...though there are definitely groups in Europe that want to "defend their culture" (the French are big on this), you almost never get such a blanket statement as "Europeans" or "European culture"...there's no such thing really. You get "we must preserve French culture" (or whatever). Also, even within Europe, most people find these attitudes outdated and racist.

Culture and race are fluid. They change. People have always migrated, and will continue to migrate, and they'll influence the places they go to. It's how it's always been, and how it always will be. I even see this in myself. A big part of my identity was always being "half German", but now that I've moved to Germany, the Canadian side of me plays a big role. It influences how I vote, what I do with my time, how I get involved in politics, etc. I've been in Berlin for over 7 years now, and more people from other countries (many from English-speaking ones) are moving here and it's changing the city. There are people who hate this, but many who love it (you get better burgers than you used to!)

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The Swastika's earliest known origins lie in Pakistan and India. It is used in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. I don't think a group of white or mostly white people can use the swastika without being compared to Hitler and the Nazis. That might be racist in itself but it's understandable considering its history in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

Exactly. It's a loaded symbol.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

Context is everything. In my book on the Anglo-Saxons there are a lot of swastikas in illustrations of cremation pots. That's just because Anglo-Saxon cremation pots were often decorated that way. My Indian son-in-law was given a coconut decorated with a bright red swastika when he and my daughter married - because that is traditional for Hindus.

If one uses a swastika in the context of wanting racial purity however, one mustn't be surprised to be labelled a racist.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

i think in a foreign culture or on ancient artifacts, it's a different story....but when you're modern European and you use the symbol, you can't exactly be surprised that people find it offensive, whether you believe in racial purity or not.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

i think in a foreign culture or on ancient artifacts, it's a different story....but when you're modern European and you use the symbol, you can't exactly be surprised that people find it offensive, whether you believe in racial purity or not.

Yes, good point!

[Valhalla]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

To all the people who replied to my posts: I see little point in trying to argue for European preservation on a mostly liberal forum. However, if anyone actually is interested (in learning, and not just complaining to me and trying to show me up), PM me and I'll talk in more detail about it. All I can say is, it's a cause I believe in, and now that I do believe in it, to me, I can't imagine life without it. To me, my life would be worthless, not even worth living, if I hadn't found this cause of the preservation of my people. Maybe you all can't understand that, but, to me, it's the most wonderful thing in the world.

-Valhalla

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

To all the people who replied to my posts: I see little point in trying to argue for European preservation on a mostly liberal forum. However, if anyone actually is interested (in learning, and not just complaining to me and trying to show me up), PM me and I'll talk in more detail about it. All I can say is, it's a cause I believe in, and now that I do believe in it, to me, I can't imagine life without it. To me, my life would be worthless, not even worth living, if I hadn't found this cause of the preservation of my people. Maybe you all can't understand that, but, to me, it's the most wonderful thing in the world.

-Valhalla

I didn't actually reply to your posts earlier Valhalla... and personally I don't have a problem with trying to preserve heritage, culture and traditions. To some extent - in my view - this is connected with blood and ancestry, because people feel they have a link with what has gone before, and that makes the tradition all the more valuable.

However, if you come from a line that is quite as mixed as my own, you realise that there is no single line or tradition to follow. And it's that, more than anything that makes me feel that 'blood' isn't really so very important. I live in Wales, I sound Welsh, I have a Welsh name, but 150 years ago, my ancestors were not in Wales. Mr Penry sounds Welsh, has some Welsh ancestors, but usually feels he is English. Go back three hundred years and all my ancestors were scattered around. I even have a smidgin of Romany blood.

Yet surely I must belong somewhere? How do I then work this out? How do we reasonably decide how and where we belong? Who gets to say and where does their authority come from? I have to say, I really don't have the answers to that one.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

My issue is similar to Tylluan's in that it's not that you come from a distinctive culture that you're trying to preserve (if I'm wrong in this, I'm sorry), but rather that you're going for some sort of "European" preservation. Living in Europe, it's a bit silly, because there are a lot of cultures and they're all different from each other. Do you want to preserve Scandinavian culture (Norwegian, Finnish, or Swedish?) German (if so, Saxon, Schwaebisch, Hansiatic, Bavarian...specify), Dutch, French (Norman, Provencial, Alsacian?), Czech? Polish? Hungarian? "European" is fairly broad and there's not a ton in common with a lot of places other than stuff that's been appropriated (like, you get pizza and pasta EVERYWHERE in Europe).

[Wednesday]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

To all the people who replied to my posts: I see little point in trying to argue for European preservation on a mostly liberal forum. However, if anyone actually is interested (in learning, and not just complaining to me and trying to show me up), PM me and I'll talk in more detail about it. All I can say is, it's a cause I believe in, and now that I do believe in it, to me, I can't imagine life without it. To me, my life would be worthless, not even worth living, if I hadn't found this cause of the preservation of my people. Maybe you all can't understand that, but, to me, it's the most wonderful thing in the world.

-Valhalla

There have been some good questions here that seem to come from people that are trying to understand how you've come to your decisions. Which European culture have you chosen to preserve? Which specific timeframe of that culture? The christianized aspect? The Alamanni? The celto-germanic multicultural period? Ugro-Finnic mingling? If its about ancestral lineage then why not include those of the African migration or the Indians? This isn't to call you out-- many, many reconstructionists do chose to preserve and recreate a culture with extreme specificity.

[Jembru]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

i think in a foreign culture or on ancient artifacts, it's a different story....but when you're modern European and you use the symbol, you can't exactly be surprised that people find it offensive, whether you believe in racial purity or not.

Not touching this debate with a 20 foot pole. I don't suffer f... well, lets say there are some people I don't feel the need to get close to or try to understand.. I do respect the rights of others to hold whatever beliefs they wish and don't think I have any right to attempt to change their minds, and I would try unless I just keep away. BUT I couldn't resist mentioning that I actually use this symbol. Can you believe that? Me? I belong to an on-line Tekken community who are dedicated to the character Yoshimitsu. We call ourselves the 'Manjikai'. If you write this in kanji it is 卍会. We are made up of Germans, Brits, Danish, Belgian and Polish players, and a few other countries I don't remember off the top of my head. So it's very odd to have this written on our shirts ^^ It is of course pointing the wrong way and is a positive symbol in Buddhism (yoshi-kun is a Buddhist), but it still raises eyebrows. Don't blame us though, blame namco. Yoshi is a very good character (like a robotic zombie Robin Hood), but people sometimes thinks he's bad because he's covered in 'manji' symbols.

Aanyway.. continue..

[Medusa]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

Well you could answer my question. It's pretty simple and doesn't need a pm.

[westwoden]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

I think westwoden is a racist whilst I'm just honestly selfish. I don't want any ethnic clensing of Britain. I just want less people period. If I could pick a bunch of white people to remove I would. As long as none of them are my friends or familly.

well steady on there, I didn't start this group of Wodenists!

I see Woden as a God, and some people may like to remain true to their tribal ancestry - that is not the same as being racist.

All the political stuff can be dropped and we are left with a reasonable religious group here.

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The Swastika's earliest known origins lie in Pakistan and India. It is used in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. I don't think a group of white or mostly white people can use the swastika without being compared to Hitler and the Nazis. That might be racist in itself but it's understandable considering its history in Europe.

Some Anglo-Saxon pagan groups used the swastika, way before Hitler came on to the scene.

why should they have to give it up now just because someone abominated their beliefs?

[RiverSong]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

Some Anglo-Saxon pagan groups used the swastika, way before Hitler came on to the scene.

why should they have to give it up now just because someone abominated their beliefs?

You have a point... because of Hollywood's misrepresentation of the Pagan pentagram, many take the symbol's meaning as evil doings of cult-ish people who eat babies, have sex with devils or dead bodies, drink human blood, rape kidnapped virgins, and have wild sex orgies in the woods. I do own a Pentagram pendant, which I have to be careful where and when I wear it, because the old meaning and connection of it has been lost to Hollywood's propaganda. I tried wearing it to therapy group once and it freaked out people to no end. :-/
Still, I don't believe that the symbol should disappear only because a few assholes (pardon my swear) used it in a wrong way. Yet, on the other hand I'm not surprised if people get the wrong idea from my pendant and I understand why. Sadly, it's a loaded symbol and the burden of responsibility lies on me on where and how I wear it. I can't get upset at people's ignorance about it's origins or meaning, but I can grumble (which I do often! lol) towards the sources of that ignorance. In other words, you can't fault people for raising an eyebrow to the swastika, but by all means grumble about Hitler and his crew for causing such an issue in the first place.

And I think what everyone was pointing out is the fact that Wodenism seems to chant about blood purity, the same thing as Hitler and Nazis fancied, while having a swastika is a bit... well. The swastika used for an inclusive group may get less suspicious stares, is all. If I saw the swastika on a Buddhist temple, I wouldn't think twice about it. If I saw it on any group that was inclusive, like the Tekken video gaming group mentioned earlier, I'd shrug. And that's because I was clued into it's meaning, thanks to Dan Brown's writings. But, if it's on a group that says and stand for, "get out of here! you don't have our skin color!"... then, I'm incline to think "Nazis!!!" And run away like hell, screaming, "start the car! start the car!" ;^_^

[westwoden]

Re: Wodenism - is it racist or is it the real deal?

There seem to be some misconceptions about Wodenism here.

Wodenism is basically a form of Anglo-Saxon paganism revering the God Woden.

The link I posted in the OP is only one group of Wodenists, who appear to ascribe to some form of Aryan supremacy. (this is a folk-religion type group)

However, this is only 1 group

Now there is one in the USA called The Temple of Wotan (or sometimes Wotanists), followers of David Lane - this is a neo-nazi brigade.

So we can see that there are several different types of follower here - with similar sounding names.

My personal interest is with the more inclusive form of Anglo-Saxon pagans - Woden in the positive sense.

Similar to Asatru and others.